Chris Dendrinos

Chris Dendrinos from RBC Capital Markets asked about the deployment timeline for Bloom's 800 Volts DC solution, customer reception, its competitive advantages, and the next technological advancements on Bloom's R&D roadmap, specifically regarding rapid load following for AI without batteries.

Answer

K.R. Sridhar, Founder, Chairman, and CEO of Bloom Energy, highlighted the significant competitive advantages of 800 Volts DC in terms of CapEx, reliability, copper usage, and operating costs. He stated Bloom is future-proofing its offerings, shipping all new servers as 800 Volts DC ready. Sridhar also expressed excitement about the rapid load following 'app' for AI, which allows Bloom's systems to handle AI load swings without batteries, offering cost savings, enhanced safety, and eliminating battery supply chain constraints.

Chris Dendrinos from RBC Capital Markets asked for more details on the Brookfield partnership, including its development timeline and financial implications for Bloom Energy. He also inquired about the global market opportunity, specifically if similar power limitations seen in the U.S. are present in Europe and Asia, and how this might drive international growth for Bloom.

Answer

K.R. Sridhar, Founder, Chairman, and CEO of Bloom Energy, highlighted Brookfield's significant investment in AI infrastructure and its role as a preferred onsite power provider and financier for Bloom-sourced deals, with an initial $5 billion investment. He mentioned an upcoming announcement for a Bloom-powered European AI inference data center. Regarding global opportunities, K.R. Sridhar confirmed widespread power shortages in major European and Asian cities, noting a shift in sentiment towards natural gas as a long-term solution, which, combined with Bloom's carbon capture capabilities, positions the company for significant international acceleration.

Chris Dendrinos inquired for more details on the Brookfield partnership, including its potential development timeline and financial benefits for Bloom Energy. He also asked about the global opportunity, specifically if Europe and Asia are experiencing similar power limitations as the U.S., and how this might drive international growth.

Answer

K.R. Sridhar, Founder, Chairman, and CEO of Bloom Energy, highlighted Brookfield's significant AI investments and vast infrastructure portfolio, positioning Bloom as the preferred onsite power provider. He noted Brookfield's commitment to finance Bloom-sourced AI opportunities, with an initial $5 billion investment and an upcoming European AI inference data center announcement. Sridhar confirmed that major cities in Europe and Asia face power shortages, recognizing natural gas as a long-term solution, which, combined with interest in Bloom's carbon capture capabilities, presents a tremendous international growth opportunity.

Chris Dendrinos from RBC Capital Markets inquired about customer adoption of the combined heat and power (CHP) solution and asked for a competitive comparison against natural gas turbines for data center power.

Answer

KR Sridhar, Founder, Chairman & CEO, explained that customers show high interest in CHP, often planning to retrofit it after an initial rapid power deployment. He positioned Bloom's solution as superior to gas turbines, citing comparable CapEx for high-reliability setups, significantly lower OpEx due to better fuel efficiency, and faster deployment due to easier permitting.

Christopher Dendrinos asked for specifics on cost-saving opportunities to offset tariffs and whether the utility regulatory environment, like the pending FERC decision for AEP, is creating a near-term deal bottleneck.

Answer

K.R. Sridhar (Founder, Chairman, and CEO) explained that cost reduction is ingrained in Bloom's culture, driven by a portfolio of projects in technology, manufacturing, and yield improvements. Regarding regulation, he characterized the current issues as 'temporary blips,' stating that partners like AEP are confident and that regulators understand the need to facilitate power for economic growth.

Christopher Dendrinos inquired about the composition of the product backlog, seeking a breakdown by AI and C&I segments. He also asked for clarification on the Investment Tax Credit (ITC) safe harbor provision and the associated $12-15 billion revenue opportunity.

Answer

CFO Dan Berenbaum declined to provide a specific backlog breakdown but highlighted strong momentum in U.S. C&I. CEO KR Sridhar added that roughly one-third of the deployed fleet serves data centers. Both executives explained that the ITC safe harbor provision, compliant with Treasury guidance, allows customers to secure 40-50% tax credits for projects placed in service through 2028, effectively making ITC a non-issue for the company's U.S. business in the medium term.

Christopher Dendrinos requested a breakdown of the product backlog by segment (AI vs. C&I) and sought clarification on the Investment Tax Credit (ITC) safe harbor provision, including its mechanics and the potential $12-$15 billion revenue opportunity.

Answer

CFO Dan Berenbaum stated the company would not provide a specific backlog breakdown but confirmed strong momentum in both AI and C&I segments. CEO KR Sridhar added that about one-third of the deployed base serves data centers. Regarding the ITC, both executives explained that the safe harbor provision allows customers to secure 40-50% ITC benefits for systems placed in service by 2028, making the credit a non-issue for Bloom through that period.

Christopher Dendrinos from RBC Capital Markets asked for the rationale behind the Fremont manufacturing capacity expansion and how it translates to the 2025 outlook.

Answer

CEO K.R. Sridhar explained the expansion to one gigawatt is driven by anticipated rapid market growth, not speculation, and noted they can add another gigawatt within 6-9 months if needed. CFO Dan Berenbaum added that expansions are done prudently, tied to visible demand, and that the recent inventory increase reflects this anticipated demand.

Chris Dendrinos asked about the demand impact from the recent microinverter price reductions in Europe. He also inquired whether Enphase is considering similar price cuts in the U.S. market.

Answer

Badri Kothandaraman (President and CEO, Enphase Energy) stated that Enphase expects to see some benefit from the approximately 20% reduction in microinverter list prices at distributors in Europe. Regarding the U.S., Kothandaraman mentioned that Enphase is always evaluating price adjustments and will implement them when appropriate, based on installer feedback and market conditions.

Chris Dendrinos asked about the demand impact resulting from the recent price reductions in Europe and whether similar price cuts are being considered for the U.S. market.

Answer

Badri Kothandaraman, President and CEO, stated that Enphase expects to see some benefit from the approximately 20% reduction in microinverter list prices at distributors in Europe. Regarding the U.S. market, Mr. Kothandaraman mentioned that the company is always evaluating pricing, conducting weekly installer roundtables, and will inform when appropriate to implement any changes.

Chris Dendrinos inquired about Enphase's strategy to strengthen its position and expand market share with the largest TPO providers, especially in a market that might see further consolidation, shifting focus from the long-tail to the 'fat part of the tail'.

Answer

President & CEO Badri Kothandaraman corrected the 'myth' that Enphase doesn't work closely with large TPOs, stating the company works with every one of them. He explained the strategy is to make them successful by lowering total installation costs and time, and streamlining O&M. He cited the fourth-generation battery and meter collar as examples of product innovations developed in collaboration with TPOs to reduce costs and will be working 'even more aggressively' to gain share with these key partners.

Chris Dendrinos followed up on the Eaton partnership, seeking more information on its current status and how the collaboration is progressing.

Answer

CEO Rick Wilmer characterized the Eaton partnership as exceeding expectations, noting that it has unlocked more innovation than initially anticipated, specifically mentioning the V2H home solution and the DC-only version of the DC fast charge product. He also confirmed strong operational collaboration and the shipment of co-branded products.

Chris Dendrinos requested more information on the status and progress of ChargePoint's partnership with Eaton, seeking additional details on the relationship's development.

Answer

CEO Rick Wilmer characterized the Eaton partnership as exceeding expectations, highlighting the increased innovation unlocked, such as the V2H home solution and the differentiated DC-only version of the DC fast charge product for DC grids. He also noted strong operational collaboration, with significant co-branded product shipments in the past quarter.

Christopher Dendrinos asked for an expanded view of the competitive landscape, including whether competitors are exiting the market, following the comment about winning back deals from rivals who failed to deliver.

Answer

CEO Rick Wilmer clarified that winning back deals from competitors who couldn't execute has occurred in multiple significant instances. He described the overall level of competition as 'fairly consistent,' but noted that the specific names of competitors are changing as various companies enter and exit the home, commercial, and fleet markets.

Christopher Dendrinos asked for a breakdown of the levers ChargePoint has to achieve its goal of positive adjusted EBITDA in fiscal 2026.

Answer

CFO Mansi Khetani outlined three primary levers: continued management of the cost structure on the OpEx side, revenue growth driven by existing and new opportunities, and gross margin improvement, which will be significantly aided by the benefits of Asian manufacturing starting mid-next year.

Chris Dendrinos asked about the timing and deployment strategy for Westport's recently announced CNG solution, inquiring whether Sospira would need to move trucks to the United States and outlining the overall development timeline. He also sought clarification on whether the engineering revenue recognized in the quarter was a one-time event or an ongoing revenue stream for the company.

Answer

CEO Dan Sceli clarified that the CNG solution for North America involves developing an "off-engine" storage system, complementing Sospira's already developed "on-engine" HPDI technology, with no need to move European trucks. He explained that initial steps involve demonstration fleets, followed by commercialization with OEMs and EPA certification. Sceli confirmed that engineering revenue in the high-pressure controls business is an ongoing stream, representing payments for complex component development for hydrogen systems, with R&D costs incurred before customer reimbursement.

Chris Dendrinos asked about the timing for potential deployment of the recently announced CNG solution, specifically whether Sospira trucks would need to be moved to the United States and the overall development timeline. He also questioned if the engineering revenue recognized in the quarter was an ongoing stream or a one-time event.

Answer

CEO Dan Sceli clarified that the CNG solution for North America involves developing off-engine components (storage, controls, AFS) locally, while Sospira's on-engine HPDI system is already developed. The initial phase will involve demonstration fleets, followed by commercialization with OEMs after EPA certification. Regarding engineering revenue, Sceli confirmed it is an ongoing stream within the high-pressure controls business, related to development work for hydrogen systems, with customers paying for the technology development.

Chris Dendrinos from RBC Capital Markets asked for confirmation on when the transitional revenues for the Sispira JV within the heavy-duty OEM segment would conclude and inquired about future funding commitments for Sispira beyond the third quarter.

Answer

CFO Bill Larkin confirmed that the transitional manufacturing support revenue for Sispira was substantially completed in Q2 2025, with very little expected going forward. President & CEO Daniel Sceli reiterated that, as planned, Sispira will continue to require cash contributions from its parent companies during its three-year build-out phase to support its growth.

Asked about the company's M&A strategy, the geographic focus for growth (North America vs. global), and whether the company has the necessary in-house R&D capabilities to execute its new strategy post-divestiture.

Answer

The M&A strategy will focus on acquiring capabilities to build out the high-pressure controls business into a full system, with an immediate focus on North America. The company confirmed it has the necessary R&D and engineering capabilities in-house, located in Ontario and separate from the divested business, to pursue this growth.

Christopher Dendrinos of RBC Capital Markets asked about the potential for M&A as part of the new strategy, including the types of targets and geographic focus. He also questioned if the company possesses the necessary in-house R&D capabilities to pursue this new strategic direction.

Answer

CEO Dan Sceli confirmed that the company will consider bolt-on acquisitions to build its high-pressure controls business into a full system provider, with an immediate focus on North America. He also affirmed that the company's North American R&D group, based in Cambridge, Ontario, is entirely separate from the divested business and is fully equipped to execute the new strategy and build out the product portfolio.

Inquired about the exit from the Weichai JV, a potential strategic shift in the Light-Duty segment's geographic focus, and started to ask about a receivable.

Answer

The Weichai JV exit was a financial decision that doesn't affect the ongoing relationship. The Light-Duty segment's recent performance was due to a customer's inventory issue and a slow product launch, both of which are resolving. They are not strategically shifting away from any region and expect volumes to recover.

Chris Dendrinos asked about EVgo's long-term outlook on EV demand, including factors that could influence the pace of development, and later inquired about quantifying the early results of Tesla charging on the EVgo network with NACS cables.

Answer

CEO Badar Khan explained that EVgo anticipates continued EV growth, focusing on strong returns on capital and increasing usage per stall to guide deployment. Regarding NACS cables, Mr. Khan noted an increase in Tesla driver usage at pilot sites and plans for a scaled rollout in 2026, following further data analysis.

Chris Dendrinos from RBC Capital Markets inquired about EVgo's long-term outlook on EV demand, specifically how the company considers market fluctuations when planning development, and asked for quantification of the early uptick in Tesla charging on the network following NACS cable rollout.

Answer

CEO Badar Khan explained that while EV sales forecasts fluctuate, the increasing affordability and quality of EVs suggest continued strong growth. He emphasized EVgo's focus on generating strong returns on capital deployed, noting that the growing ratio of cars per fast charger nationwide supports increased usage per stall. Regarding NACS, Khan stated it's too early for precise quantification but noted higher Tesla driver usage at sites with NACS cables, indicating a planned scale rollout in 2026 after further data analysis.

Chris Dendrinos of RBC Capital Markets asked for more detail on the Q2 firmware update issue that impacted utilization and inquired about the long-term deployment strategy for NACS cables.

Answer

CEO Badar Khan clarified that a faulty firmware update early in Q2 was largely rectified, and the company proactively addressed legacy hardware issues simultaneously. This resulted in a strong recovery, with July's average throughput approaching 300 kWh/stall/day. On NACS cables, Khan noted that early pilot results showing significantly higher Tesla driver usage are encouraging. The company plans to retrofit about 100 cables this year and will consider accelerating the rollout if the positive productivity trends continue.

Christopher Dendrinos inquired about potential private financing options beyond the DOE loan, asking for an update on timing and whether securing such funding could lead to an acceleration of EVgo's stall build-out plans.

Answer

CEO Badar Khan confirmed that the DOE loan advances are proceeding as planned. He stated that due to strong asset cash flows, EVgo continues to receive inbound interest for additional non-dilutive financing. These discussions focus on accelerating growth beyond the DOE-funded plan or funding stalls ineligible for the loan, such as those for autonomous vehicles. Khan indicated a deal could potentially be executed sometime in 2025 and that such financing could enable an acceleration of the five-year stall build-out schedule.

Christopher Dendrinos asked how EVgo would respond to a potential halt in DOE loan funding and whether it would curtail growth. He also inquired about the strategy and financial profile of the dedicated stalls business for autonomous vehicle (AV) partners.

Answer

CEO Badar Khan reiterated confidence in the loan's durability. CFO Paul Dobson emphasized EVgo's strong cash position of approximately $200 million and near breakeven operating cash flow, stating they have the flexibility to adjust CapEx if needed while also pursuing complementary financing. Regarding dedicated stalls, Khan explained it's a growing segment with a fixed monthly revenue model, offering predictable cash flows with margins lower than the public network but higher than the eXtend business, and without utilization risk.

Christopher Dendrinos of RBC Capital Markets inquired about the strategy for alternative financing options beyond the DOE loan and asked for more detail on how the partnership with Delta Electronics will achieve a 30% CapEx reduction per stall.

Answer

CEO Badar Khan clarified that while alternative non-dilutive financing was once seen as a backup, it is now viewed as a way to supplement the DOE loan and fund stalls outside its scope. He stressed that closing the DOE loan is the top priority. On the Delta partnership, Khan explained the CapEx savings will come from a co-developed architecture that improves power sharing, dispenser design, and construction efficiency, including an expanded use of prefabricated skids.

Chris Dendrinos from RBC Capital Markets asked for clarification on HASI's $6 billion pipeline, noting it appeared flat quarter-on-quarter but would be significantly up after adjusting for the $1.2 billion October transaction, and inquired about any demand pull forward.

Answer

Jeff Lipson, President and CEO, explained that the grid-connected pipeline was replaced with new volume, maintaining the "greater than $6 billion" level. He indicated that HASI is comfortable with the pipeline for 2026 goals and is not observing significant demand pull forward, describing current activity as ordinary course.

Chris Dendrinos asked for clarification on the $6 billion pipeline remaining flat quarter-over-quarter despite a large transaction, and whether any demand pull-forward was observed.

Answer

Jeff Lipson, President and CEO, explained that the grid-connected pipeline was replenished with new volume after the $1.2 billion transaction, maintaining the 'greater than $6 billion' level. He noted no significant demand pull-forward, attributing current activity to ordinary course business and grandfathered projects.

Chris Dendrinos of RBC Capital Markets inquired about HASI's involvement with SunStrong's servicing of the Sunnova portfolio, its potential EPS impact, and the performance of HASI's residential solar portfolio.

Answer

President and CEO Jeffrey Lipson clarified that SunStrong is a 50%-owned joint venture, not a direct acquisition, and that its servicing of the Sunnova portfolio will add valuable scale. CFO Chuck Melko added that any financial impact will be gradual and flow through equity method investments. Lipson also distinguished HASI's portfolio, which is over 95% leases, from the loan-focused assets discussed in recent negative press, stating HASI's lease portfolio continues to perform very well.

Christopher Dendrinos inquired about the potential leverage profile and interest rate for debt at the CCH1 co-investment vehicle and how the company's current stock price impacts its equity financing needs and investment pace.

Answer

President and CEO Jeffrey Lipson stated that leverage at CCH1 would be relatively low with an investment-grade type cost of funds, similar to HASI's corporate debt. He also noted that the company has significantly reduced its need to issue new shares through mechanisms like CCH1 and its payout ratio, making it less dependent on the stock price for growth.

Christopher Dendrinos asked for more detail on the opportunity to leverage the SunStrong platform for acquiring assets and as a servicing platform. He also sought clarification on the funding timeline for the CCH1 partnership.

Answer

Chief Revenue & Strategy Officer Marc Pangburn explained that the SunStrong platform, which assumed SunPower's servicing business, now generates recurring fee revenue and presents an opportunity to grow by expanding that servicing platform. President and CEO Jeffrey Lipson clarified that the CCH1 partnership is on track to meet its original $2 billion investment volume target by the end of 2025, noting the standard lag between commitment and funding.

Chris Dendrinos asked for more color on the North America price mix, specifically the key drivers behind tariff dynamics, competitive pricing pressures, and mix down. He also sought an outlook on when the segment could return to positive year-on-year price mix.

Answer

CFO James Brunk attributed the price mix pressure to lower demand, aggressive competition, promotions, and residential remodeling being impacted by consumer confidence and trade-down. He noted that international political events also constrain markets, while ceramic's commercial penetration outperforms. Chairman and CEO Jeff Lorberbaum anticipated year-on-year improvement in price mix for Q4 and continued improvement into next year as more pricing comes online.

Chris Dendrinos followed up on Prolec GE's low double-digit revenue CAGR through 2028, asking if the growth outlook is capacity constrained and how it compares to the growth opportunity for the rest of the electrification portfolio.

Answer

CEO Scott Strazik noted that GE Vernova's core electrification business has outperformed Prolec GE's projected low double-digit CAGR, with Q3 orders growing over 100%. He clarified that the Prolec GE numbers represent baseline JV financials without embedding future synergies or GE Vernova's full ownership strategy. CFO Ken Parks reiterated that Prolec GE is not capacity constrained for its 2028 projections, having invested $300 million in capacity expansion across its facilities. Scott emphasized Prolec GE's strong lean foundation and potential for mutual learning.

Chris Dendrinos asked if Prolec GE's low double-digit revenue CAGR through 2028 is capacity constrained and how its growth outlook compares to the broader electrification portfolio.

Answer

CEO Scott Strazik noted that GE Vernova's core electrification business has recently outperformed Prolec GE's projected growth rate, with Q3 orders up over 100%. He clarified that Prolec GE's current growth outlook represents a 'floor' based on the existing joint venture strategy, without incorporating new synergies from full ownership. CFO Ken Parks confirmed that Prolec GE is not capacity constrained for its projections, having invested $300 million in capacity expansion across its facilities. Scott Strazik emphasized Prolec GE's strong operational foundation and potential for further investment.

Chris Dendrinos asked about the company's robotics and automation initiatives, seeking to understand where management sees the greatest opportunity to leverage this technology across its business lines.

Answer

CEO Scott Strazik explained that initial 'lighthouse projects' are focused on Gas Power and Grid factories where lean principles are most advanced. He identified a major future opportunity in Wind services, envisioning robots servicing blades to improve safety and efficiency. He positioned this as a key investment area for 2026 that will drive returns in subsequent years.

Chris Dendrinos asked about the robotics and automation opportunity highlighted by management, seeking to understand where the company sees the greatest potential to leverage this technology across its business lines.

Answer

CEO Scott Strazik described the initiative as a natural extension of the company's lean transformation. He said they are starting with 'lighthouse projects' in Gas Power and Grid factories where lean is most advanced. He also identified a significant opportunity in Wind services, envisioning robots performing blade maintenance in remote, high-altitude locations. Strazik positioned these as investments that would likely ramp in 2026 to yield returns in subsequent years.

Christopher Dendrinos asked about the current pricing environment, questioning if GE Vernova is still able to increase prices for gas turbines and within the Electrification segment.

Answer

CEO Scott Strazik confirmed a continued 'price up' environment for Gas Power, with prices expected to rise through 2025. He noted that Electrification is also seeing price gains, though at a slower pace than in 2024, with strength concentrated in areas like North American switchgear. CFO Ken Parks added that these recent price increases are not yet fully reflected in the reported backlog margin, suggesting future profit expansion.

Christopher Dendrinos focused on the Electrification segment, asking if GE Vernova has the capacity to meet surging demand and whether the company is still able to increase prices.

Answer

CEO Scott Strazik confirmed that pricing power continues in Electrification. He explained that the company can meet demand efficiently by leveraging its existing industrial footprint, noting that 75% of a planned capacity doubling in the Power Transmission business will come from lean improvements rather than capital-intensive greenfield projects. CFO Ken Parks added that North America is now the segment's fastest-growing region.

Chris Dendrinos from RBC Capital Markets inquired about Fluence's manufacturing flexibility to support different cell formats if they were to switch suppliers from AESC. He also asked for an update on U.S. pricing dynamics in response to tariffs.

Answer

President and CEO Julian Nebreda acknowledged that switching cell technology would require adaptation but stated it would not be a major undertaking given the timeline, as new supply isn't needed until early 2027. On pricing, he said that while U.S. costs may see upward pressure over time, near-term projects are largely safeguarded, so significant price increases are not expected in the next 6-12 months.

Christopher Dendrinos inquired if the new product is industry-leading or a catch-up effort and questioned the implied low margin on the unbooked portion of the revised 2025 guidance.

Answer

President and CEO Julian Nebreda positioned the new product as industry-leading in density and design, intended to regain competitive advantage. CFO Ahmed Pasha clarified that new contracts signed since last quarter were at high-single-digit margins, which, when blended with the existing backlog, resulted in the revised 11% midpoint margin.

Christopher Dendrinos asked about the intensity of price competition from vertically integrated rivals and how the competitive landscape is shaping up for 2025. He also questioned if Fluence might expand its role in the value chain, for instance by taking on more EPC work.

Answer

President and CEO Julian Nebreda acknowledged a competitive market but argued that as hardware costs fall, the value of reliability, commissioning, and logistics increases. He stated Fluence wins on total cost of ownership, not just CapEx. He added that the company already offers EPC services with partners when customers require it and sees no need to change this flexible approach.

Chris Dendrinos asked about the specific levers, beyond the new NexSys platform, that SolarEdge can pull to regain market share in Europe. He also requested more detail on the new market segments NexSys will help address.

Answer

CEO Shuky Nir outlined a strategy for Europe focused on strengthening partnerships with distributors and installers to win their trust. He elaborated that the NexSys platform will specifically target segments like larger residential systems (up to 20kW) in Germany, where the current product is less competitive. The platform's better cost structure and features are expected to enhance competitiveness and drive share gains.

Christopher Dendrinos asked about the operational impacts of the next-generation product launch, specifically focusing on its effect on the manufacturing cost structure and gross margin profile.

Answer

CEO Yehoshua Nir confirmed the new product line is designed for manufacturability with an expected improved cost structure and will be ramped up in U.S. facilities. CFO Ariel Porat added that the new products were designed with different components and capabilities specifically to reduce costs and improve gross margins compared to the current generation.

Chris Dendrinos from RBC Capital Markets asked about Sunrun's strategy for capturing market share from the non-TPO market following the 25D sunset, specifically regarding the onboarding of new installers. He also inquired about recent changes in tariff impacts.

Answer

President & CRO Paul Dickson outlined a two-pronged strategy: selectively onboarding high-quality installers into their affiliate network and directly hiring talent into their sales and installation teams. CFO Danny Abajian noted that tariff impacts have moderated to the low end of their expected range and are fully reflected in current guidance.

Inquired about the 2025 expectations for loan prepayments and the potential upside, as well as the remaining opportunity and timeline for the 'flip the WIP' initiative.

Answer

Loan prepayments are expected to increase at a similar 20% YoY clip, with potential upside if interest rates are cut; this is viewed as a conservative lever in the guidance. The 'flip the WIP' initiative has a meaningful upside, potentially up to $100 million, with most of it expected to be realized this year, though some could spill into Q1 2025.

Questioned the validity of the Net Contracted Customer Value (NCCV) calculation, given the large discrepancy between its cost assumptions and the company's actual operating costs.

Answer

The company defended its ability to lower costs significantly, noting the NCCV metric uses a historical industry standard for consistency. They also clarified that their separate unlevered return metric is more punitive as it is burdened with all current operating costs, and they are focused on driving those costs down.