Colliers International Group - Earnings Call - Q1 2025

Transcript

Operator (participant)

Welcome to the Colliers International first quarter investors' conference call. Today's call is being recorded. Legal counsel requires us to advise that the discussion scheduled to take place today may contain forward-looking statements that involve known and unknown risks and uncertainties. Actual results may be materially different from any future results, performance, or achievements contemplated in the forward-looking statements. Additional information concerning factors that could cause actual results to materially differ from those in the forward-looking statements is contained in the company's annual information form as filed with the Canadian Securities Administrators and the company's annual report on Form 40-F as filed with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. As a reminder, today's call is being recorded. Today is Tuesday, May 6th, 2025. At this time, for opening remarks and introductions, I would like to turn the call over to the Global Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Mr.

Jay Hennick. Please go ahead, sir.

Jay Hennick (Global Chairman and CEO)

Thank you, Operator. Good morning, and thanks for joining us for the first quarter conference call. As the Operator mentioned, I'm Jay Hennick, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Colliers, and with me today is Christian Mayer, our Chief Financial Officer. As always, this call is webcast and available in the investor relations section of our website, along with a detailed presentation slide deck. We're pleased with our operating results for the quarter, which met expectations, and keep us on track to deliver on our full-year targets. We took a cautious outlook at the beginning of the year, given the macroeconomic and political uncertainty at the time, and we're sure glad we did. At Colliers, market volatility has never derailed our focus on creating long-term value. Our leadership team has consistently navigated uncertainty with discipline and has taken the opportunity to seize opportunities when they present themselves.

This time is no different. That said, we're seeing significant growth across business segments and geographies, which we expect will continue, particularly in the second half of the year. Our newly established engineering segment delivered strong internal growth in the quarter and, combined with acquisitions, posted meaningful gains over the prior year. With more than 9,000 professionals and over $1.5 billion in annualized revenue, we're now one of the top global players in the industry with additional opportunities for growth. In investment management, AUM exceeded $100 billion for the first time. Fundraising is gaining momentum, driven by new vintages and new investment strategies. We're leveraging our scale, our expertise, and our proprietary data and relationships to deliver strong performance and innovative opportunities for our investors.

Our real estate services segment is a global leader, ranking among the top three worldwide with a balanced, diversified platform supported by a strong foundation of recurring revenues. With 14,000 professionals globally, this segment has consistently delivered year-over-year growth and strong cash flows, despite obvious tailwinds in capital markets. Once the market stabilizes, we expect activity levels to rise, which will drive even greater profitability to this division. We also advanced our growth strategy with the acquisition of Ethos Urban, adding best-in-class urban planning capabilities in Australia, the pending acquisition of Triovest, which strengthens our leadership in high-value recurring real estate services in Canada, and the recent acquisition of Terra Consulting, further expanding our infrastructure capabilities in our U.S. engineering platform. With three powerful growth engines, a world-class team, and a 30-year record of performance through all market cycles, Colliers is well-positioned to continue delivering exceptional value for shareholders.

Now, I'll turn things over to Christian for his financial report, and then we'll open up the call to your questions. Christian?

Christian Mayer (CFO)

Thank you, Jay, and good morning, everyone. Please note that the non-GAAP measures discussed here today are as defined in the materials accompanying this call, and all references to revenue growth are on a local currency basis. Revenues for our first quarter are $1.1 billion, up 16% relative to the prior year period, with significant growth coming from our engineering segment. Internal growth was 4% overall and was led by engineering, which had robust increases in activity, particularly with public sector clients in all four of our key end markets: property, infrastructure, water, and environmental. First quarter adjusted EBITDA was $116 million, up 7% over the prior year, with contribution from both internal growth and acquisitions. Overall, real estate services net revenue grew modestly for the first quarter. Capital markets activity was up 10% globally. Sales brokerage was up in all geographic regions and all asset classes.

Debt finance activity increased nicely, particularly refinancing volume in our U.S. multifamily franchise. Leasing revenues were down 5% relative to a strong prior year first quarter that had a couple of larger specialty asset class transactions. We expect leasing revenues to return to year-over-year growth going forward. The segment's net margin declined modestly to 6.6% for the seasonally slow first quarter, primarily due to continued healthy investments in recruiting as well as revenue mix. Engineering performed strongly in Q1, with net revenue growth of 63%, attributable to both recent acquisitions and low teens percentage internal growth. The net margin increased to 8.4%, up 110 basis points relative to the prior year period due to improvements in staff utilization and operating leverage. We continue to carefully monitor our clients for potential tariff or government policy-related impacts, but to date, are not aware of any significant issues.

Investment management net revenues, excluding pass-through performance fees, were flat as expected. The net margin was 46.2%, up from 44.2% last year, with lower incentive compensation partially offset by higher headcount. We raised $1.2 billion of new capital commitments during the first quarter, which was more than double the amount we raised in the prior year period. Notably, 3/4 of the capital commitments raised during the quarter were in traditional real estate strategies, indicating increased investor interest as conditions improve. We expect our fundraising to accelerate in the second quarter, with new vintages of existing products as well as new investment strategies entering the market. Assets under management at March 31st were $100.3 billion, up $1.4 billion from year-end. Increases came from fundraising and positive mark-to-market adjustments, partially offset by portfolio dispositions that returned capital to investors.

Our cash flow from operations and free cash flow for the first quarter improved significantly year-over-year. On a trailing 12-month basis, our free cash flow exceeded $400 million and represented a conversion rate of 136% of adjusted net earnings. Across each of our business segments, our operations are working capital light and have modest CapEx, resulting in strong free cash flow that can be reinvested in our growth. Over the long term, we are targeting a conversion rate of approximately 100% of adjusted net earnings. Moving to our balance sheet, our leverage ratio defined as net debt to pro forma adjusted EBITDA was 2.2x as of March 31st. As expected, leverage increased modestly in the first quarter, given seasonal operating cash outflows. For the second quarter, we expect leverage to remain in the 2x range, then decline to approximately 1.5x by year-end. This assumes no material acquisitions.

Our full-year financial outlook remains unchanged. As Jay noted in his comments, we took a cautious posture when we set our outlook back in February, knowing that international trade tensions and interest rate volatility could impact our clients and our businesses. We currently expect transactional revenue choppiness to continue in the second quarter but see an improvement in operating conditions in the back half of the year. That concludes my prepared remarks. Operator, can you please open the line for questions?

Operator (participant)

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll now begin the question-and-answer session. Should you have a question, please press the star followed by the number one on your touch-tone phone. You will hear a prompt that your hand has been raised. Should you wish to decline from the polling process, please press the star followed by the number two. If you are using a speakerphone, please lift the handset before pressing any keys. One moment, please, for your first question. Your first question is from Anthony Paolone from JPMorgan Chase. Please go ahead.

Anthony Paolone (Executive Director)

Yeah, thanks, and good morning. I guess first question is, can you just talk about what you have seen unfolding more recently in the market and where, whether it's by region or property type or business line, where maybe you've seen some impact from the macro environment?

Jay Hennick (Global Chairman and CEO)

Wow, that's a loaded question. There's things happening all over the place, and so I'm trying to zero in on a couple of highlights for you. We're seeing sort of better results in Asia. We're seeing some pockets in Europe. I'm talking specifically about capital markets now. New York seems to be strong in terms of new leases, new leases at record rates. Generally speaking, there is still an uncertainty in the marketplace, which is preventing clients from making longer-term decisions on leases in non-key markets, let's say. We were, I would say, at the beginning of the quarter, excited that things were stabilizing. Of course, all this tariff stuff started, and all of a sudden, transactions that were close to closing had financing tied up, and a variety of other things just were put on delay.

All of this to say is we're still in a market, in my view, that's uncertain and unclear, and only a select number of transactions are getting completed.

Christian Mayer (CFO)

I'd add to that, Jay, in terms of we talked about our capital markets business, but when you switch over to looking at our engineering segment, activity levels there continue to be very robust, Tony, and we have strong pipelines of work. We are seeing the public sector clientele particularly engaging on new and enhanced projects and assignments. I feel very good about that segment. In terms of investment management indications to date, given the trade uncertainty and volatility, is that activity levels and interest levels in fundraising are proceeding and growing. I think the volatility here should not be a major factor impacting our success in fundraising for the year.

Anthony Paolone (Executive Director)

Okay, thanks. That actually gets to my follow-up, which was going to be in investment management, because you all did, I think you mentioned, double your fundraising in the quarter there. What do LPs want right now or not want? Can you just give us a little bit more about how that's going and kind of where the success lies there?

Jay Hennick (Global Chairman and CEO)

I think there's a lot of pent-up demand across all the strategies. I think there's been such a softness in fundraising across the board for the past couple of years, and this year is going to be the telltale. I mean, we're forecasting fundraising to be more than double what it was last year, and we started off with the first quarter with a nice start. I think people are feeling better. I think they want to get back to completing transactions. I am cautiously optimistic that we're at the other side of this on the investment management component of our business.

Operator (participant)

Okay, thank you. Your next question comes from Daryl Young from Stifel. Please go ahead.

Daryl Young (Managing Director and Equity Research Analyst)

Hey, good morning, everyone. On the engineering platform, you've been adding a lot of new technical capabilities with some of your smaller tuck-under acquisitions. I'm just wondering if going forward, will this be a business that's maybe more centralized than your historical operating model? Is that in part what's driving some of the strong results this year? Is you're maybe integrating these businesses and cross-selling more than you might have historically and under your decentralized model? Any color there would be great.

Jay Hennick (Global Chairman and CEO)

No, I don't think we're going to change the Colliers investment model at all. It's proven the test of time, for sure. What is more centralized is that country for country. For example, the U.S. business operates as one large partnership. That's a big differentiator, we think, for us. Same thing in Canada. These are larger platforms that operate in a centralized way in partnership with the people that make it happen day to day. Yes, there's huge synergies in the business. You can add product specialties. There's strong organic growth opportunities. Christian has alluded to a few, but it continues. The market is massive. The other thing is the Colliers brand has gone a long way in enhancing the stature of engineering firms that were otherwise not really well-known.

They might have been known in a region, but now they have a national presence both in Canada and in the U.S. and in Australia and New Zealand. Let's not forget that our engineering segment also includes both our project management and our program management capability, which are also consolidating, which also have great cross-sell opportunities to the same client base. We are very excited about that business and what we can do with that business over the next 5-10 years. We are not active in Europe at all yet. We would love to be active there as well. This is a segment that could dwarf the rest of our real estate services business, as an example. A lot of focus and a lot of energy are going into this segment for us.

Daryl Young (Managing Director and Equity Research Analyst)

That's good color. Thanks, Jay. One more on the real estate services side, the margins were a little bit lighter than I would have thought. Talent acquisition, obviously, short-term pain for long-term gain. I'm just wondering, can you give us some color on how many net hires you have today, and what the expectation for growth and hires would be going forward, or is this a bit of a backfill for maybe some departures you've had last year or through the last couple of years?

Christian Mayer (CFO)

Yeah, Daryl, we do have internal targets we set for growth in our business. We've grown our practice significantly over the last four or five years, both mostly through organic recruiting, but also a little bit of acquisition activity. There hasn't been a lot of acquisition activity lately. When we look at our organic growth in real estate services, I'm talking about the [Cap Mark and] Leasing practice in particular here right now. We're targeting a 4-5% annual growth rate in terms of the number of producers, net growth rate. We also are very focused on increasing the productivity of those producers through training, technology, tools. A lot of little things go into that to enhance their ability to generate revenue and, in turn, profitability for Colliers.

Daryl Young (Managing Director and Equity Research Analyst)

Got it. Okay, thanks very much. I'll hop back in the queue.

Operator (participant)

Your next question is from Stephen Sheldon from William Blair. Please go ahead.

Stephen Sheldon (Equity Research Analyst)

Hey, thanks for taking my questions. I wanted to first here just to follow up on the prior engineering question. Would love an update on how that business has kind of been performing relative to your expectations. I think you mentioned low teens internal growth this quarter, so really good growth. Are you seeing any benefits from cross-selling, I guess, with other business lines? Is this more about engineering kind of growing the opportunity on engineering as standalone, or have we started to see some benefit about taking engineering and have it be a part of the bigger Colliers platform?

Jay Hennick (Global Chairman and CEO)

I mean, there's cross-selling in that business in a couple of ways. One is internal, as we've discussed. If one specialty, say water, has a client that needs a different specialty, there's lots of cross-selling. It's built into the DNA of that organization. There are multiple cross-selling opportunities within the platform, not to mention the opportunity to add specialties and then cross-sell them. The cross-sell within the platform is something that is international in scope. For example, in engineering, the U.S. engineering firm has referred some key global clients to Canada and vice versa. We haven't seen too much yet in Australia and New Zealand, but we think that that's coming. In terms of the real estate cross-selling, that's a whole separate opportunity. I think it is, if I'm being frank, it is smaller in materiality, but still quite interesting.

For example, every time a client, first of all, it's the same client base, essentially the same client base across the board. They know the Colliers name. They know the Colliers brand. They may want to secure land. Before they secure land, they need to do a whole variety of testing. It might be environmental testing. It might be road access. It might be a variety of other things like that. We can do preliminary work with them, and that is happening, and it's happening consistently between the two different platforms. Once the land is acquired and the owner of the land chooses to develop whatever that might be, whether it is civil or whether it is private, there's a need for a project manager or a project or a program manager to execute on behalf of the client.

Colliers really has the opportunity to surround these same clients both internally within the platform, but also externally in the Colliers traditional real estate platform. There is lots of opportunity, but we're really still at the early stages. I would say in terms of cross-selling, we've seen more cross-selling between engineering internally and engineering with the real estate services segment. We've seen more of it than in most other cross-selling opportunities across our company over the years. That is an exciting positive for us.

Stephen Sheldon (Equity Research Analyst)

Got it. Great to hear. As a follow-up on the leasing side, that was a notable slowdown this quarter. I think you talked about some tough comps there. Can you just give some more detail on those tough comps and what gives you the confidence in the reacceleration over the rest of the year? Within that, I guess, how different do trends look between office and industrial leasing?

Christian Mayer (CFO)

All right, Stephen. Leasing had a tough comp in Q1 relative to Q1 of 2024, as well as Q1 of 2023, quite frankly. Both of those prior quarters had specialty asset transactions, a couple of them. And when I say that, I mean data center type transactions. We, unfortunately, did not have the same type of transaction activity this quarter, and that was the key factor that led to the leasing relative lower performance year on year, and in fact, relative to the prior year as well. As we look ahead, Jay mentioned office leasing is strong in many markets, some markets more than others. Industrial leasing, we're keeping a close eye on. In fact, it's impacted directly by some of the tariff stuff that's happening.

Industrial leasing was up nicely for us in Q1, but on a full-year basis, we think industrial leasing will be up more moderately than that, perhaps low to mid-single-digit growth in industrial leasing for the full year. All that to say, we expect on a full-year basis, our leasing business to be up mid-single-digits, top-line revenue. I think that still holds despite the tough comp in Q1, which was frankly something we were aware of when we set our road look for the year.

Jay Hennick (Global Chairman and CEO)

I might add something, and this is just the reality. If you pulled out the transactions, and they were massive transactions in two consecutive years. If you pull them out, our leasing is up actually 6.5% year-over-year. It is just another data point. Christian is right. We expect it to return to normal levels in subsequent quarters.

Stephen Sheldon (Equity Research Analyst)

Very helpful. Thank you.

Operator (participant)

The next question is from Frederic Bastien from Raymond James. Please go ahead.

Frederic Bastien (Managing Director and Head of Industrial Research)

Hi guys. I just wanted to thank you for offering the breakdown of pass-through costs for each segment. I find it quite useful, especially for engineering. On that note, we have a good feeling for where your strength lies in Canada with the big acquisition you did last year. If you were to highlight which disciplines your U.S. engineering business is best at, which ones would they be?

Jay Hennick (Global Chairman and CEO)

That's a good question. We'll come back to you on that. It is a highly diversified business, which is one of the great benefits of it. I think that if I comment about some of the specialties that I think stand out, I might offend my partners in that business. We'll get back to you on that, Fred, and give you two or three that we all believe are significant, although Christian's got some input for you.

Christian Mayer (CFO)

Yeah. I mean, Frederic, the Canadian business you talked about, Englobe, a well-known Canadian player, obviously strengthened in infrastructure, transportation, power, water. The U.S. business, different business, so it was acquired five years ago. Core traditional strength areas there, infrastructure, transportation, the departments of transportation of several large states are key clients there in that business. We also have a number of commercial infrastructure type clients and programmatic type clients in our project management and program management business that are both public sector and private sector. It is a very widely dispersed client base with a lot of different activities happening. Yeah.

Frederic Bastien (Managing Director and Head of Industrial Research)

Thanks. With respect to regional strength, I mean, you're obviously building a platform. I recall you started out on the U.S. East Coast. Where would there be opportunities for growth, either through M&A or organic growth?

Jay Hennick (Global Chairman and CEO)

Yeah, there's multiple opportunities, as you would expect, Fred.

Frederic Bastien (Managing Director and Head of Industrial Research)

How big is your platform now in the U.S.?

Christian Mayer (CFO)

It's approaching about $600 million in revenue, with headcount is 2,500.

Frederic Bastien (Managing Director and Head of Industrial Research)

That's [crosstalk]?

Jay Hennick (Global Chairman and CEO)

Yeah, in the U.S.

Frederic Bastien (Managing Director and Head of Industrial Research)

Okay. That's great. That's super helpful. Useful. Thanks. That's all I have for now. Thank you.

Jay Hennick (Global Chairman and CEO)

Thanks, Frederick.

Operator (participant)

Your next question is from Julien Blouin from Goldman Sachs. Please go ahead.

Julien Blouin (VP and Senior Analyst)

Yeah. Thank you for taking my question. For the engineering segment, that low teen internal growth feels quite a bit stronger than I think the organic growth rates we had previously talked about for the business of mid-high single-digits. Do you feel like that's sustainable? Can you help us sort of break that apart? How much of that low teens growth was top-line driven versus margin improvement?

Christian Mayer (CFO)

Julien, the low teens growth rate was the top-line growth for the quarter on a net revenue basis. What you said is exactly right. Mid-high single-digit organic growth is the expectation for the full year. We had a few things accelerated in Q1, and Q1 is actually a seasonal slow quarter in engineering as well. The growth rates get a bit exacerbated there. No, for a full year, it is going to be mid-high single-digits. that is the expectation, and we are very comfortable with that.

Julien Blouin (VP and Senior Analyst)

Okay. Great. I appreciate the comments you gave on leasing. It sounds like there was really an issue of difficult comps. I guess sort of when you zoom out, do you feel like you're sort of holding or potentially losing share in leasing versus some of your peers who have reported generally better than that in terms of leasing results? Is that an okay outcome if instead you would rather allocate capital to engineering, outsourcing, investment management?

Jay Hennick (Global Chairman and CEO)

In terms of allocation of capital, we're quite balanced and have lots of capital available to deploy. Capital allocation hasn't yet been a problem for us. One of the things that, if you look at our business relative to—I'm now talking about the real estate services business relative to our peers—we are extremely well balanced on a global basis. Market for market, we have wide diversification. We have full services. We can service clients wherever they operate. I think most importantly, we have a track record of consistent profitability and strong tenure amongst our leadership team. We're very comfortable, and we see it as more so than most of the other peers, this balanced global approach. We're taking share, we believe, across the board. It's very difficult. It's very difficult in some markets and some sub-markets to take share.

For example, New York is a very mature market, difficult to take share. We're doing our best. There are other markets in which there is huge opportunity for us to grow. Markets like Japan have been very good for us in recent years. India has been very good for us in recent years, and things like that. I believe we're taking share, and we're taking share mostly from the secondary players in the industry that are having trouble with their global operations.

Julien Blouin (VP and Senior Analyst)

Okay. Great. Thank you, Jay.

Operator (participant)

Your next question is from Jimmy Shan from RBC Capital Markets. Please go ahead.

Jimmy Shan (Managing Director of Real Estate and Global Research)

First, the Q1 margin was up a decent amount this quarter. You're still guiding to sort of flat to modest decline in the margin for the year. I guess first, can you maybe elaborate on that or square that for us a little bit? Second question is, and could be related to that, you talked about integration last quarter, the back office and the fundraising, and I wondered if you could update us on the progress being made there.

Christian Mayer (CFO)

Yeah. Jimmy, the investment management margin in the first quarter on a net service revenue basis was up a little bit. That is just a factor of lower incentive compensation. We did have some higher headcount offsetting that. That is continuing the themes of prior calls we have had where we have talked about the additional resources that we have been adding into our investment management practice. We expect over the course of [the year] for margins to be flat to possibly down slightly in investment management. We will continue to be investing there. We are going to continue to work on integration activities using our scale to become more efficient with some back office processes and reduce some redundancies in the business. We will have more to talk about on that as this exercise progresses.

Jay Hennick (Global Chairman and CEO)

Yeah. I would add, this is a segment that obviously we are very excited about. We have so many opportunities to leverage the scale that we have, the talent, proprietary data that we have across the platforms. The talent that we have are all experienced investors in specialized areas. They are actually partners in the business, so they have a vested interest in what they do day to day. The opportunity for us is to bring all of that together and to really focus on delivering performance and new investment ideas to our LPs by using some of that unique talent that we have across the platform. There will be more to say about this over the course of the next year. It is a one step at a time approach.

It is nice to see fundraising up, and it is nice to see our fee and EBITDA and margin numbers pretty good relative to previous quarters.

Jimmy Shan (Managing Director of Real Estate and Global Research)

Okay. Thank you.

Operator (participant)

Your next question comes from Nevan Yochim from BMO Capital Markets. Please go ahead.

Nevan Yochim (VP and Equity Research Analyst)

Yeah. Thanks, guys. Just maybe high-level, you touched on some of the tariff uncertainty impacting your clients. In the discussions you've had, what have your clients decided they'll need to see in order to resume some of the decision-making in a more meaningful way?

Jay Hennick (Global Chairman and CEO)

Tariffs, obviously, the subject is yours. I would have said up until yesterday, tariffs were essentially on hard products. Yesterday, for the first time, our president has decided to put tariffs on movies, which is actually a service. Colliers operations are decentralized. They are country-specific. We deliver the services that we deliver within country. As an organization, we are not impacted directly by tariffs. Indirectly, tariffs could drive up the cost of construction in that component of our business and that, therefore, slow down new developments. That could happen. Engineering, sort of the same thing. Depending upon supply chains and other things, will it drive up the cost of production, of construction, and therefore the need of engineering services? Obviously, we are not seeing it at this point.

In fact, we're seeing a lot of positive news there because there's lots of talk about infrastructure build and things like that, which is right in our sweet spot virtually across the board. We're looking forward to increased activity around those kinds of things. We're monitoring it very closely but have really no certainty now other than we really don't see it impacting us in any material way at this point.

Nevan Yochim (VP and Equity Research Analyst)

Great. Thanks, Jay. And then just one more on M&A. You've completed several transactions in engineering as well as real estate services recently. Just wondering what the areas are where you're seeing the greatest opportunities in the market today.

Jay Hennick (Global Chairman and CEO)

We continue to see lots of opportunity, as I said, in engineering and project management and related specialties. Our pipelines are full. The challenge/opportunity for us is to curate the right ones and then integrate them effectively. The other thing that we are seeing is a widening of the lens around what is real estate services. For example, there is a whole world out there around fundraising, raising capital for infrastructure projects, data center projects, things like that, which is something that I do not think traditional real estate firms had thought about three years ago. Those are the kinds of areas that are really expanding what we could be doing within that real estate component of our business. In addition to the usual opportunities, which are more capital markets, more leasing, more property management, more valuation, things like that, all of which are vast categories.

They've got lots of growth opportunities both in taking share and making acquisitions. We feel like we're in two, aside from IM, we're in two very, very large segments of the overall economy and on a global scale. The thing I haven't mentioned or emphasized is we have a strong management team with a long tenure with us that have done acquisitions globally for 30 years. We can take advantage of opportunities virtually anywhere in the world that makes sense. Ethos Urban was a great example this past quarter. There are others where for us, it's just a natural next step to augmenting our internal growth strategies wherever we're doing business.

Nevan Yochim (VP and Equity Research Analyst)

Thanks for the detail.

Operator (participant)

Your next question comes from Maxim Sytchev from National Bank Financial. Please go ahead.

Maxim Sytchev (Managing Director and Research Analyst)

Hi, good morning, gentlemen.

Jay Hennick (Global Chairman and CEO)

Hey.

Maxim Sytchev (Managing Director and Research Analyst)

Jay, you made an interesting comment around engineering potentially dwarfing real estate services. When I look at the sort of the nature of fragmentation, engineering versus, for example, leasing, I mean, there is dramatically more fragmentation in the engineering space. How do you—can you think about sort of the upper bound where you would want to be, I do not know, in five or ten years, depending on sort of how things evolve on that side? Can you maybe comment on that, how you guys are thinking about this internally? Just what is sort of the right balance and the right opportunity in terms of kind of going into the most fragmented market possible from an M&A perspective? Thanks.

Jay Hennick (Global Chairman and CEO)

Yeah. So Maxim, I mean, you've followed our progress for a long time. We have these five-year plans. As I think about your question and try and respond, I immediately defer to what do we think our engineering segment looks like five years from now? First, I would say it's not called engineering. It's probably called engineering and other. I don't know what other is, but that whole segment is not just engineering. It's project management, program management, and a variety of other related services. That's the first thing. The category just can continue to widen and widen. Secondly, if we can continue to grow that business globally, as Christian said, and I'm high single-digits internal growth, that's pretty damn good for a company of our size.

If we can add at least 10% or 12% of the prior year's EBITDA in that segment to our engineering group and roll that number out five years, it will blow you away. That is sort of consistent with our five-year thinking. We have not yet refined our next five-year plan, but that is kind of the way we see it. The segment is so damn big. For us, it is all about curating the right pieces and management teams that want to be partners in our business, which is our key differentiator from some of the others. Those that, as they merge their operations in with us, take a significant equity stake in that platform. That has proven for us to be a great competitive advantage, which I am sure others will copy tomorrow after I have just said it.

Maxim Sytchev (Managing Director and Research Analyst)

Appreciate the call, Jay. Thank you so much.

Operator (participant)

There are no further questions at this time. I will turn it over to Jay Hennick with closing remarks.

Jay Hennick (Global Chairman and CEO)

Okay. I want to thank everybody for joining us this morning. We look forward to our second quarter conference call and probably canvassing many of the same questions we've covered today. Thanks for participating.

Operator (participant)

Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes the conference call. Thank you for your participation and have a nice day.