First American Financial - Q4 2023

Transcript

Operator (participant)

Greetings, and welcome to the First American Financial Corporation Fourth-Quarter and Full-Year 2023 Earnings Conference Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. A brief question and answer session will follow the formal presentation. If anyone should require operator assistance during the conference, please press star zero on your telephone keypad. A copy of today's press release is available on First American's website at www.firstam.com/investor. Please note that the call is being recorded and will be available for replay from the company's investor website and for a short time by dialing 877-660-6853 or 201-612-7415 and enter the conference ID 13743995.

We will now turn the call over to Craig Barberio, Vice President, Investor Relations, to make an introductory statement.

Craig Barberio (VP of Investor Relations)

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to First American's fourth quarter and year-end earnings conference call for the year 2023. Joining us today on the call will be our Chief Executive Officer, Ken DeGiorgio, and Mark Seaton, Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer. Some of the statements made today may contain forward-looking statements that do not relate strictly to historical or current fact. These forward-looking statements speak only as of the date they are made, and the company does not undertake to update forward-looking statements to reflect circumstances and events that occur after the date the forward-looking statements are made. Risks and uncertainties exist that may cause results to differ materially from those set forth in these forward-looking statements. For more information on these risks and uncertainties, please refer to yesterday's earnings release and the risk factors discussed in our 10-K and subsequent SEC filings.

Our presentation today also contains certain non-GAAP financial measures that we believe provide additional insight into the operational efficiency and performance of the company relative to earlier periods and relative to the company's competitors. For more details on these non-GAAP financial measures, including presentation with, and reconciliation to the most directly comparable GAAP financials, please refer to yesterday's earnings release, which is available on our website at www.firstam.com. I would now like to turn the call over to Ken DeGiorgio.

Ken DeGiorgio (CEO)

Thank you, Craig. We were performing well in a challenging market ahead of the cybersecurity incident that occurred in late December. As previously disclosed, we elected to take systems offline while we assessed and remediated the situation. The incident materially impacted the company's operations and consequently our fourth quarter financial results. Our title orders and related product demand appear to have returned to normal levels, however, and we do not expect any significant ongoing impact from the incident. Looking to 2024, we expect challenging market conditions to persist. Housing affordability and lack of inventory will remain headwinds for our purchase business. Refinance activity will also remain subdued, given that most existing mortgages carry interest rates under 5%. Transactions in the commercial market should increase, albeit at lower prices, as price discovery continues.

While we expect to see modest revenue growth in both our residential and commercial businesses this year, this could change depending on the path of mortgage rates. Turning to order trends in our key markets, purchase open orders in January are up 6% compared with last year. Refinance open orders in January averaged over 300 per day, consistent with trough levels experienced throughout 2023. Commercial open orders for January are up 7% compared with last year. While some of these orders spilled over from December, these trends support our assessment that the cybersecurity incident will not have a significant ongoing impact on our business.

Despite the uncertainty of the timing of a sustained recovery in our key markets, the strength of our business, along with our financial discipline and strong balance sheet, allow us to continue to invest for long-term growth while returning capital to our shareholders. We remain active in our share repurchase program, repurchasing $18 million of our shares in the fourth quarter, for a total of $73 million for the full year, at an average price of $55.18 per share. In closing, I want to acknowledge the significant support provided by our agents and customers and other industry participants during our cybersecurity incident. I also appreciate the patience our customers demonstrated as we worked through the process of returning to normal operations. In addition, we have consistently highlighted the importance of our people to the success of our business.

The incredible dedication and resilience they demonstrated in response to the cybersecurity incident underscores this principle. I greatly appreciate their tireless efforts to serve our customers and restore our systems. Now I'd like to turn the call over to Mark for a more detailed discussion of our financial results.

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

Thank you, Ken. This quarter, we generated earnings of $0.33 per diluted share. Our adjusted earnings per share, which excludes the impact of net investment losses and purchase-related amortization, was $0.69. These results include tax benefits of $5 million or $0.05 per share, primarily due to research and development tax credits we claimed. As previously disclosed, our earnings this quarter were materially impacted by the cybersecurity incident. However, the exact impact the incident had on our results is unknowable. In our Title segment, revenue from certain transactions were transitioned to other providers, while others were delayed into 2024. On December 18th, prior to our systems being taken offline, we produced an internal forecast estimating our adjusted EPS to be $1 per share. This forecast includes our actual results for October and November, our forecast for December and a tax rate of 24%.

Our actual adjusted EPS was $0.69, including the $0.05 tax benefit, implying a $0.36 shortfall relative to our internal estimate. Although we believe most of this difference is related to the cyber incident, as I mentioned, the exact impact the incident had on our fourth quarter results is unknowable. Included in this $0.36 shortfall was $11 million of direct expenses related to the incident in our Corporate segment. It is too early to tell how much of this shortfall will be recouped in the first quarter or how much will ultimately be covered by our insurance program. We do not believe the incident will have a significant impact on the company's outlook for 2024. Turning to our Title segment, revenue was $1.3 billion, down 18% compared with the same quarter of 2022.

Commercial revenue was $172 million, a 32% decline over last year. Our average revenue per order for commercial transactions declined 20% this quarter to $11,000, due to a combination of fewer large transactions and lower valuations as prices in the commercial market soften. Purchase revenue was down 11% during the quarter, driven by a 14% decrease in the number of orders closed, partially offset by a 4% increase in the average revenue per order. Refinance revenue declined 32% relative to last year. Although mortgage rates have fallen 100 basis points from the recent highs, they are still at levels materially above what is needed to generate a significant rise in refinance activity. In the agency business, revenue was $570 million, down 24% from last year.

Given the reporting lag in agent revenues of approximately one quarter, these results reflect remittances related to Q3 economic activity. Our information and other revenues were $211 million, down 12% relative to last year. This decline was primarily due to reduced demand for the company's data and property information products in our direct title business. Investment income within the Title Insurance and Services segment was $132 million, unchanged relative to the prior year, as higher interest rates were offset by lower escrow balances. For the full year of 2023, we saw our investment income surge 50% as the Fed raised rates four times. Now, as the Fed prepares to lower rates, we estimate that for each 25 basis point decline in the Fed funds rate, our annualized investment income will decline $15 million.

But the ultimate amount will fluctuate depending on the level of cash and escrow balances. The provision for policy losses and other claims was $30 million in the fourth quarter, or 3.0% of title premiums and escrow fees, down from the 4.0% loss provision rate in the prior year. The 3.0% loss rate reflects an ultimate loss rate of 3.75% for the current year, with an $8 million release for prior policy years. Over the last several quarters, we have highlighted the margin drag in the Title segment related to three strategic initiatives: ServiceMac, Endpoint, and instant decisioning for purchase transactions. We have seen significant earnings improvement in ServiceMac since we acquired the company in October 2021.

In this quarter, the pre-tax margin of ServiceMac was in line with our overall Title segment results and no longer a margin drag. Therefore, we are removing ServiceMac from our commentary and only including Endpoint and instant decisioning for purchase transactions. Together, these two strategic initiatives reduced our pre-tax margin in the Title segment by 130 basis points. Pre-tax margin in the Title segment was 4.5%, or 7.5% on an adjusted basis. Total revenue in our home warranty business totaled $99 million, a 9% decline compared with last year. In 2022, we recognized a favorable deferred revenue adjustment of $8 million. Excluding this adjustment, revenue in our home warranty business would be flat relative to last year. Pre-tax income in home warranty was $15 million, down 6% from the prior year.

The loss ratio in home warranty was 44%, down from 47% in 2022, driven by lower frequency and severity of claims. Adjusted pre-tax margin in the Home Warranty segment was 19.9%, up from 18.8% in 2022. The effective tax rate for the quarter was 10.7%, lower than our normalized tax rate of 24%, due primarily to research and development tax credits we recognized during the quarter. In the fourth quarter, we repurchased 329,000 shares for a total of $18 million at an average price of $53.85. Our debt to capital ratio as of December 31st was 28.6%. Excluding secured financings payable, our debt to capital ratio was 22.3%.

Now, I would like to turn the call back over to the operator to take your questions.

Operator (participant)

Thank you. We will now be conducting the question and answer session. If you would like to ask a question, please press star one on your telephone keypad. A confirmation tone will indicate that your line is in the question queue. You may press star two if you would like to remove your question from the queue. For participants using speaker equipment, it may be necessary to pick up your handset before pressing the star key. One moment, please, while we pull for questions. Our first question comes from Bose George with KBW. Please state your question.

Bose George (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)

Hey, everyone. Good morning. Actually, I wanted to ask, in terms of your margin expectation for 2024, you know, if the MBA is right, we have a modest improvement in purchase, and as you noted, commercial gets a little better, you know, NII maybe a little bit worse. Like, where do you think everything kind of shakes out in terms of your margin in 2024 versus 2023?

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

Thanks for the question, Bose. You know, there’s a lot of factors, obviously. I mean, the good news is we do feel like there’ll be modest growth in our core business when we talk about commercial and purchase. Perhaps maybe not quite as much as the MBA is suggesting, but we do feel like we’ll have some modest growth. We also feel like, you know, our 3% loss rate that we booked this quarter is sustainable from what we can see now. So that should be a little bit of a tailwind. The downside for next year is, you know, if the Fed starts to lower rates, you know, that’s gonna have an impact on our investment income.

I just talked to my script here, how we're gonna lose $15 million of annualized investment income every time the Fed lowers rates. So we'll have to see how that plays out, but that would be a headwind. But right now, as we look at everything, we feel like our margins in 2024 are gonna be very similar to what they were in 2023. Where, you know, we had double-digit margins this year, we feel like we can hit double-digit margins in 2024 as well.

Bose George (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)

So, okay, great. That's helpful. Thanks. And then, actually, I just wanted to ask, the cash balance went up a lot in the quarter. You know, what was driving that?

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

It was really a function of the incident. We had a lot of cash at our bank. Typically, we wouldn't hold that much cash. We would push it out to third-party banks, but it was incident related, and we just held a lot of cash at our bank because we just didn't quite have the ability to push it out to third-party banks like we typically do at that time of year.

Bose George (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)

Okay, great. And then actually one more on NII. Do you think the balances will be, escrow will be roughly flat year-over-year? Any reason to think it'll be different?

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

Well, I would say we think balances, they really track, our commercial business. So, you know, I would say that they should be up modestly in 2024. Roughly about 60% of our escrow balances are commercial related. So they're really gonna track commercial. So if you think commercial is gonna have modest improvement, we should have modest improvement in our escrow balances as well.

Bose George (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)

Okay, great. Thank you.

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

Thanks, Bose.

Operator (participant)

Our next question comes from Terry Ma with Barclays. Please state your question.

Terry Ma (Senior Equity Research Analyst)

Hey, thanks. Good morning. So on the 130 basis point margin drag from Endpoint and instant decision, is there any color you can provide on how that kind of trends throughout the year? I think with ServiceMac, it had kind of been abating by about 20 basis points a quarter.

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

We think it's gonna improve throughout the year. You know, our Endpoint results have improved, and we think they're gonna get better and better. We've been talking about instant decisioning for purchase transactions for a few quarters now, and those expenses we feel like are gonna ramp up this year as we, you know, roll out that. And so, you know, I think it'll, it'll improve a little bit, but it'll still be a drag, even, you know, as we get to the end of the year, but probably less than 130 basis points we're experiencing now.

Terry Ma (Senior Equity Research Analyst)

Okay, got it. Then on the investment income, is there, I guess, any more color you can provide just based on where the forward curve is right now?

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

Well, when we checked yesterday, the forward curve I think had five rate decreases. One of those would be in December, which wouldn't really have an effect on us. And so I would just I mean, the guidance that we look at internally, again, is, you know, every time the Fed cuts, we're gonna lose $15 million of investment income in our Title segment. And so, you know, if the Fed's gonna cut five times, one of those again in December, which wouldn't really have an effect on investment income, we'd lose, you know, $60 million of annualized investment income. That wouldn't all hit, obviously, next year, but you can sort of model that out given the guidance we've provided.

Terry Ma (Senior Equity Research Analyst)

Okay, got it. That's helpful. Thank you.

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

Okay. Thanks, Terry.

Operator (participant)

Our next question comes from Soham Bhonsle with BTIG. Please state your question.

Soham Bhonsle (VP and Housing Services Analyst)

Hey, good morning, guys. Hope you're doing well. Just to follow up on the margin, I guess you talked through some of the puts and takes here. But is there any additional CapEx that we should be thinking about to maybe, you know, shore up any of your systems with the cyber incident or any sort of investment that you would have to make this year that we should be thinking about?

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

I would just say that we're in terms of CapEx specifically, our CapEx is gonna come down next year. So in 2023, we had $263 million of CapEx, and it'll come down somewhere between 10%-15% next year. Some of that is because we've finished some projects that we no longer need. Other parts of the decline is just because we feel like we can do things more efficiently than we have in the past. We're hiring a lot of engineers to do the work for us, as opposed to using more third parties, which is saving us on CapEx.

So CapEx is gonna come down next year, somewhere around 10%-15%, and that's despite some, you know, I'd say, enhancements we need to make to our information security program, but it's not gonna have a material impact on our earnings or CapEx next year.

Soham Bhonsle (VP and Housing Services Analyst)

Got it. Okay. And then can I just get sort of an update on, you know, the roll-off of your sub-servicing assets here? You know, how should we think about that impacting the investment income line potentially through the year?

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

So we've talked about in the past, these, these Homepoint loans. It's unclear exactly when the Homepoint loans would leave. Right now, you know, our, our expectation is that they would leave somewhere in mid-year. But, you know, one thing I would say is that, again, is not gonna have a material impact, certainly to our investment income, because we generate investment income from those loans, but we also pay out interest expense on those loans. So even if we, we lost them, it's not gonna have. You, you'll see fluctuations for interest income and interest expense, but from a pre-tax perspective, it's, it's not gonna be, it's not gonna be significant at all. But to answer your question, right now, the expectation is we hold onto those mid-year, but that, that could change depending on circumstances.

Soham Bhonsle (VP and Housing Services Analyst)

Got it. Then just last one, I think, you know, Mark, you guys have talked about, look, the $15 million is better than the $20 million historically, because, you know, you're trying to sort of, you know, bring folks to the bank and maybe bank with you guys. I guess I was wondering, have you seen any sort of discernible movement in agent behavior in a market like New York, you know, where we're sort of hearing just, you know, the likes of NYCB and these folks having some issues? Are you seeing some of that business come to you or any sort of other banks in that market specifically?

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

You know, you're talking about, like, deposits for our agent banking industry?

Soham Bhonsle (VP and Housing Services Analyst)

Yeah, yes, bro.

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

Yeah.

Soham Bhonsle (VP and Housing Services Analyst)

Yep.

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

We haven't seen a big influx in deposits because of the issues you're referring to here. But I would just say that, you know, long term, we are real positive on agent banking. When we started in January of 2023, we had basically $110 million of deposits for agent banking. At the end of the year, we had $271 million of deposits. So we're growing it really nicely. It's just from a very small base, right? You know, on a bank deposit base of $6 billion, I mean, $271 million isn't material, but we're very optimistic about the growth. We feel like we've got a good product market fit. We just need a little bit more time to execute.

So we're very optimistic, but the growth that we're seeing isn't because of, you know, any troubles of any other banks. It's mostly because we can provide a really, you know, efficient product and service to our agent banking clients.

Soham Bhonsle (VP and Housing Services Analyst)

Understood. All right. Thanks a lot, guys.

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

Thank you.

Operator (participant)

Thank you, and just a reminder to the audience, to ask a question, press star one on your telephone keypad. Press star two to remove yourself from the queue. Our next question comes from Mark Hughes with Truist Securities. Please state your question.

Mark Hughes (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)

Yeah, any thoughts on capital management outlook for 2024?

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

Well, capital management, there's a couple different components we think about. You know, one is M&A, and I would just say that, you know, we would have thought the acquisition pipeline would have been a little bit more robust when the market fell, and it really hasn't, as we've talked about on these calls. But we feel like the longer this kind of market malaise lasts, the more M&A opportunities will be. So that'll always be something we look at. In terms of the buyback, I mean, we've been very active in the buyback the last two or three years, and that's always something we'll look at.

You know, at the end of the day, if we got excess capital, we feel like the stock is undervalued and we don't have better uses for the capital, we'll buy it back. And so that's always something we'll continue to evaluate. And then, of course, the dividend. We're not committed to raise the dividend every year, come hell or high water, but we pretty much have raised the dividend, and that's something we want to continue to do. So the fortunate part is that we've got a really good balance sheet at the trough of the cycle here, and we're looking to actively put it to work where we can.

Mark Hughes (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)

And then, not to try to cut it too finely, but you'd mentioned that the January purchase up 6%, commercial up 7%. I think you suggested there could be some spillover from December. If you look at the kind of recent trends, maybe late January or early February, do you see any difference relative to those numbers you gave us?

Ken DeGiorgio (CEO)

Yeah. Excuse me. Thanks, thanks for the question, Mark. Yeah, you know, I think we saw you know, probably a larger uptick in the you know, the early weeks, the first week of January, and it tailed off as you went through the month, you know, which suggests yes, there was some spillover. But I think on the whole, we feel pretty good about where the numbers came out in January.

Mark Hughes (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)

Yeah. Well, I guess they didn't immediately shift the order somewhere else, so spillover has some meaning, as well.

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

Yeah.

Mark Hughes (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)

Okay. Thank you very much.

Operator (participant)

Our next question comes from John Campbell with Stephens. Please state your question.

John Campbell (Managing Director of Equity Research)

Hey, guys. Good morning.

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

Morning.

John Campbell (Managing Director of Equity Research)

Hey, so Mark, in your prepared remarks, you highlighted that it's impossible to fully size up that, you know, the exact impact of the cyber incident. I think that's definitely understandable. There's obviously a lot of moving parts there, but I'm gonna see if we can get a little bit more color, at least on what was visible for you guys. So you called out the $11 million expense. But as far as, you know, maybe what else is visible to you guys, maybe it's orders that got pushed into 1Q, like you just mentioned, or maybe it's orders you had in the mix that pulled out and went to competitors. Do you have any rough sense for what, you know, the just broadly, what the degree of the impact was from that standpoint?

Ken DeGiorgio (CEO)

Yeah, you know, I... It's really impossible, it's impossible to tell. It's extremely difficult to tell. I mean, certainly some orders that, you know, might have been opened with us in the last couple of weeks of December might have opened somewhere else, though again, we saw some of the spillover, which maybe they were holding the orders and sent them to us as soon as our systems got back online.

I think where the real issue is our orders that would have closed with us at the end of December, and either the customer moved them or in many instances, we moved those orders. But keep in mind, that's behind us now. Those things are behind us now. So, you know, we're focused on the orders we got. And again, I think a lot of them, if not all of them or most of them, spilled over into January. And we'll realize the benefit of those orders in the ordinary course, under the ordinary time frames, be they a purchase refi or a commercial order.

John Campbell (Managing Director of Equity Research)

Okay, that makes sense. And then Mark, on the investment income, and you mentioned the $15 million sensitivity to every 25 basis point cut. I wanted to see if you'd give us your latest sensitivity or I guess maybe a rule of thumb on the interest expense offset. So for every $15 million, how much, you know, you would, you would be able to offset in interest expense?

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

That's something we can tighten up. But I would say, first of all, it's a good point, because if we lose investment income, we are gonna lose interest expense. The high level rule of thumb is, you know, if we lose $1 of investment income, we'll lose about $0.50 of interest expense. I mean, that's kind of what I would use for maybe modeling purposes. A lot of it depends on, you know, the mix of where our investment income is coming from, how much that's the bank versus the non-bank. But that's the high level rule of thumb I'd use.

John Campbell (Managing Director of Equity Research)

Okay. Okay, and then if I could squeeze in one more here. On the success ratio, I think you guys had talked to maybe a kind of similar 50% or so in 2024. Obviously, you're gonna be lapping this weaker quarter, and for next year, you're gonna have, you know, maybe a pair of little bit of losses out of the investments. You've obviously got, you know, some impact from investment income, but maybe if you could talk to whether you feel like that's still kind of a target that you'll manage to?

Ken DeGiorgio (CEO)

Yeah. Yeah, John, yeah, I mean, we're definitely, you know, managing to the, you know, the 50%-60% success ratio. Keep in mind, though, when we talk about modest revenue growth, the success ratio is less meaningful. But no, we're absolutely still managing to that, to that level.

John Campbell (Managing Director of Equity Research)

Okay. Thank you, guys.

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

And John, I just want to follow up on your first question. So when I said, you know, for every $1 of investment income we lose, we lose $0.50 of interest expense, that's in the Title segment only. I mean, obviously, the Corporate segment, we have our, you know, the interest expense from our our bonds that are outstanding. So my commentary was Title segment only.

John Campbell (Managing Director of Equity Research)

Okay. Makes sense.

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

Thanks, John.

Operator (participant)

Our next question comes from Geoffrey Dunn with Dowling & Partners. Please go ahead.

Geoffrey Dunn (Partner and Equity Analyst)

Thanks. Morning. My first question is, with, with respect to the, automated title and Endpoint, how much insight do you have into the timeline of that remaining—of both those initiatives remaining a drag on your margin?

Ken DeGiorgio (CEO)

Well, I mean, I don't think, I mean, it's not gonna last forever. I think Endpoint, 2023 was probably a peak year in the losses of Endpoint, and I think those are gonna gradually come down over the next couple of years. You know, on instant decisioning for purchase transactions, you know, as Mark mentioned, the expenses are probably gonna ramp up, but it's early days on that initiative, very early days. And, you know, while I think the expense and the whole scope of thing is fairly modest, it will increase modestly over time until we start to realize the benefits of that.

That one's much harder to predict, but I would anticipate, again, with Endpoint, that those, the drag is starting to decrease, and it'll decrease over time over the next couple of years.

Geoffrey Dunn (Partner and Equity Analyst)

Okay. And then, sorry, more macro question. You know, I think you-- it sounded like maybe you thought the MBA was a bit aggressive on their forecast. As you go into 2024, are you positioning the company more for a, like somewhere in the range of the Fannie and MBA forecast, or are you maybe more cautious? And, you know, I'm, I'm particularly interested in your thoughts of the scenario where maybe we see one to three cuts, but late in the year, and 2023 ends up or 2024 looks up, like, looking more like 2023 than it does 2025.

Ken DeGiorgio (CEO)

Well, I think 2025 is gonna look a lot better than 2024 and 2023. So I guess I view 2024 as a transition year. So yeah, we think the MBA is pretty optimistic. And we think, you know, the GSEs are probably, you know, a little optimistic as well. We're probably coming in a little lighter than them, but again, we seem, as we, you know, mentioned earlier, we see modest revenue growth. But I do see 2024 as a transition year, and if we get the rate cuts that the forward curve expects, or even if we get one or two less, I think it's setting us up for a great 2025.

Geoffrey Dunn (Partner and Equity Analyst)

All right. Thank you.

Operator (participant)

Our next question comes from Mark DeVries with Deutsche Bank. Please state your question.

Mark DeVries (Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)

Yeah, thanks. One more question for you about the impact of the cybersecurity incident. Mark, as you pointed out, there's a lag in reporting in the agent channel. Should we not expect to see that kind of flow through to 1Q agent premiums?

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

We will definitely have some that trickles over in the first quarter. There's no question about that, but it's just, it's not gonna be material. I wouldn't say it's material at all. So there will be, you know, remittances that we get because our agents just couldn't, like, remit the last week or two of the year, and so we're getting those now. But typically, you know, it's a fairly slow time for agent remittances anyways, and it's just, it won't be material in Q1.

Mark DeVries (Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)

Okay, fair enough. And then, you know, was just hoping to get a little bit more context about what kind of gives you comfort that there won't be, you know, a significant ongoing impact from the incident. Is there anything you can kind of share about, you know, the nature or frequency of any kind of regulatory conversations or inquiries around it? And also just discuss kind of, you know, what efforts you're kind of doing to identify and fix vulnerabilities in your systems there.

Ken DeGiorgio (CEO)

Yeah, I mean, you know, I think the big thing about, you know, kind of getting back to normal or, you know, no ongoing impact is just, you know, first of all, the orders we saw, the order counts we saw come in in January, and then the feedback we've gotten from our customers. I think by and large, our customers have indicated that they've you know, put the incident behind them. Unfortunately, in this day and age, these types of things are becoming more and more commonplace, as we've seen with, you know, competitors and other participants in the industry. Obviously, when you have an incident like this, there's you know, regulatory inquiries and potential litigation.

You know, but because our information security program really was, you know, probably best in class, I don't anticipate, but again, you never know with regulators. But I don't anticipate to have, you know, fines or, or the like coming out of regulators. Now, obviously, plaintiffs' lawyers are different, you know, they always come out of the woodwork in instances like this, but I don't anticipate that any of that would be material. And, you know, I would layer in as well, that we also have a fairly robust, you know, cyber insurance program, which would help mitigate the impact of the, you know, some of those expenses as well.

Mark DeVries (Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)

Okay, that's helpful. And then just one last follow-up on that last point, I think you... Yeah, Mark, is there any sense you can give us for, you know, if you do get insurance recoveries, what, what those might look like?

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

I'm sorry, Mark, you broke up there. Can you repeat the question?

Mark DeVries (Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)

Yeah, it's just, is there any sense you can give us for the insurance recoveries and what, you know, if you receive them, what those might look like?

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

Well, we have a $5 million deductible that we booked in Q4. And so we'll have, you know, expenses that hit in, you know, in 2024 related to the incident. But as long as we feel like those are probable in terms of recoveries, then, you know, we won't see them hit the P&L. So we don't see any significant impact in terms of the P&L in 2024, because the incident we feel like was all kind of booked in Q4.

Mark DeVries (Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)

Okay, got it. Thank you.

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

Thanks, Mark.

Operator (participant)

Our next question comes from Soham Bhonsle with BTIG. Please state your question.

Soham Bhonsle (VP and Housing Services Analyst)

Hey, Mark, I just wanted to quickly follow up on your comment on margins for 2024. So, I think, I think you said something along the lines of, you know, it's gonna be similar to 2023, but then you also said low double digits. I mean, low double digits could be a pretty wide range there. So could you maybe just put a little bit of finer point there for, for this year?

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

Well, our adjusted margin in 2023 in Title was 9.9%. So I mean, it's... You know, so our margins in 2024, given all the commentary I gave earlier, is more like a, I'll call it a 10% margin. Now, listen, if the MBA is right and, you know, originations are up, you know, 15%-20%, we're gonna do a lot better than that. So we've got more kind of scale in our business, and we're running it more efficiently than we ever have. I mean, to have a 10% margin here at the trough of the cycle is pretty good for us, given historical standards. So we just, you know, again, if we see modest improvement in 2024, we'll still be at that 10% range.

Soham Bhonsle (VP and Housing Services Analyst)

So, should we think about the 10% sort of like if volumes are up, you know, mid-singles, right, versus sort of 10%-15%? Is that the right way to think about it?

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

Yeah, I'd say, you know, low to, low to mid-single digits will be a 10. Now, obviously, there's a lot of moving pieces, but that's, that's our expectation this early in the year.

Soham Bhonsle (VP and Housing Services Analyst)

Understood. All right. Thanks a lot.

Mark Seaton (EVP and CFO)

Thank you.

Operator (participant)

Thank you. There are no additional questions at this time. That concludes this morning's call. We'd like to remind listeners that today's call will be available for replay on the company's website, or by dialing 877-660-6853, or 201-612-7415, and enter the conference ID 13743995. The company would like to thank you for your participation. This concludes today's conference call. You may disconnect now.