FTC Solar - Q3 2023
November 8, 2023
Transcript
Operator (participant)
Hello, and welcome to FTC Solar third quarter 2023 earnings conference call. At this time, all participants are on a listen-only mode. After the speaker's presentation, there will be a question-and-answer session. To ask a question during this session, you will need to press star one one on your telephone. You will then hear an automated message advising your hand is raised. To withdraw your question, please press star one one again. I would now like to hand the conference over to Bill Michalek, Vice President of Investor Relations. You may begin, sir.
Bill Michalek (VP of Investor Relations)
Thank you, and welcome everyone to FTC Solar's third quarter 2023 earnings conference call. Before the call, you may have reviewed our earnings release and supplemental financial information, which were posted earlier today. If you've not yet reviewed these documents, they're available on the investor relations section of our website at ftcsolar.com. I'm joined today by Shaker Sadasivam, Chairman of the Board, and Patrick Cook, company's Chief Commercial Officer, and Cathy Behnen, the company's Chief Financial Officer. Before we begin, I remind everyone that today's discussion contains forward-looking statements based on our assumptions and beliefs in the current environment and speaks only as of the current date. As such, these forward-looking statements include risks and uncertainties, and actual results and events may differ materially from our current expectations. Please refer to our press release and other SEC filings for more information on the specific risk, risk factors.
We assume no obligation to update such information except as required by law. As you expect, we'll discuss both GAAP and non-GAAP financial measures today. Please note that the earnings release issued this morning includes a full reconciliation of each non-GAAP financial measure to the nearest applicable GAAP measure. In addition, we'll discuss our backlog, and our definition of this metric is also included in our press release. With that, I'll turn it over to Shaker.
Shaker Sadasivam (Chairman)
Thank you, Bill, and good morning, everyone. I felt it was important to speak with you directly on behalf of the board of directors about the leadership transition we have announced today. FTC Solar is a company with a great team of employees and innovative and compelling technology and services that customers enjoy. With the start of AD/CVD and supply chain disruptions, our growth trajectory was interrupted, and much of the last two years has been about repositioning the company to be in the right markets with the right technology and cost structure. We have made progress on that front and improved our positioning. The tracker market is healthy and profitable, and FTC Solar now needs to accelerate our progress and achieve and enjoy healthy, profitable growth.
At the board level, as we evaluated our opportunities and growth plans ahead, the board agreed that now is the right time to bring new leadership to FTC Solar as we enter our next phase of growth and execution. As you saw from the press release this morning, Cathy Behnen, who has served as the company's Chief Accounting Officer since 2020, has been named our Chief Financial Officer on an interim basis. Cathy has more than 20 years of financial leadership experience, including CFO and accounting partner roles, and has made significant contributions to the company as Chief Accounting Officer and a member of the executive team. We are excited to have Cathy take on this expanded responsibility.
The combination of Cathy and her fellow executive leadership members, Patrick Cook, our Chief Commercial Officer, and Sasan Aminpour, our Chief Operating Officer, will provide steady leadership of the day-to-day management of the company. To further ensure a smooth transition for the company and its employees and customers, during this transition, the board will provide increased oversight of those leaders and be engaged on a regular basis. In particular, Ahmad Chatila will regularly assist in facilitating communication between management and the board to monitor key activities and initiatives in order to accelerate profitable growth. We are confident that this team and structure has the capability, along with the right blend of organizational history and new perspectives, to ensure that not only do we not miss a beat, but that we accelerate toward our long-term goals.
While today's news represents a change, it also represents a tremendous opportunity for us to accelerate our momentum. With that update, I thank you for your time, and I'll turn it over to Patrick to discuss the highlights from Q3 and the progress we have made.
Patrick Cook (Chief Commercial Officer)
Thank you, Shaker, and good morning, everyone. As Cathy will discuss, our third quarter results largely came in as expected, net of benefits to gross margin and a charge to operating expense that were not in our guidance. As we look to the fourth quarter, our slate of projects in aggregate is getting a later start than we previously anticipated as customers continue to experience various project delays. As a result, the guidance we are providing for the fourth quarter is down from Q3. We expect this to be followed by a much more significant revenue growth in the first quarter of 2024 as the delayed projects ramp. We continue to feel good about our future and overall long-term growth prospects. Our confidence is based on our improved competitive positioning and supported by our large and growing backlog. I'll briefly read the positioning improvements that we discussed last quarter.
First, we believe our manufacturing cost is now in line with our leading competitors. We're more competitive than we've ever been on that front and will continue to prove with scale. Second, our average new project margins put us on track to meet or exceed the targets we provided in the past. As you may recall, we have previously targeted getting to the 10%-15% gross margin range on $100 million in quarterly revenue. The fact that we were able to approach the low end of that range, or about 9.5% on a normalized basis on only $30 million in revenue in Q3, is an additional proof point that the cost reduction actions we've taken have borne fruit, and position us to achieve profitability as we grow revenue and see additional cost absorption.
Third, we are now in the market with our 1P solution, Pioneer. We believe the 1P market has done better in this time of restricted module availability, and we didn't have a solution until recently. We have had great customer response to Pioneer, and our 1P backlog is growing very nicely, including quite a few project additions following our RE+ trade show in September. Fourth, we continue to grow our international business. We're gaining traction in new regions, most recently adding awards in Spain and Italy. We've also seen larger awards in existing regions like South Africa, and now have awards in a dozen countries outside of the U.S. Our 1P solution will only enhance our prospects internationally. And fifth and lastly, our backlog has now grown to approximately $1.6 billion, with approximately $60 million added since August ninth.
On our last call, we outlined a number of projects that were added, which include deliveries in 2024, including in Spain, Italy, and South Africa. We also announced the award of a 1-gigawatt project in Idaho. One project we didn't mention at the time, but was added to our backlog last quarter, was another 600+-megawatt project in the U.S. Revenue on this project will ramp here in the fourth quarter and continue into next year. The continued growth of our backlog, including the recent additions, allows us to continue to be optimistic about our growth prospects, and our goal is now to ensure we're adding more business and converting to purchase orders to support future growth. So in summary, we were pleased to do well relative to our third quarter targets and demonstrate continuous gross margin improvement.
Some fourth quarter projects are starting later than anticipated, but we expect to improve revenue performance in the first quarter, along with margin improvement. We're positioned with a product cost structure that will enable our gross margin expansion to continue and reach new highs as revenue grows. We'll keep a cap on operating expenses while investing for future growth, and we expect to cross profitability in 2024. With that, I'll turn it over to Cathy.
Cathy Behnen (CFO)
Thanks, Patrick, and good morning, everyone. I'll provide some additional color on our third quarter performance and our outlook. Beginning with a discussion of the third quarter, revenue came in at $30.5 million. This revenue level represents a slight decline of 5.6% relative to last quarter and an increase of 84.3% relative to the year-ago quarter. Gross profits benefited from higher project margins, a better mix of materials versus logistics, and a couple of non-recurring benefits. Specifically, our GAAP gross profit was $3.4 million, or 11.1% of revenue, compared to $2.2 million, or 6.8% of revenue in the prior quarter. On a non-GAAP basis, gross profit was $3.9 million or 12.8% of revenue.
That does include a couple of non-recurring benefits totaling $1 million that were not contemplated in our guidance and related to better-than-expected margins on a closed project and lower-than-expected inventory costs that we don't expect will reoccur in future periods. If those benefits were excluded or on the same basis as our guidance, non-GAAP gross margin would have been 9.5%, still above our guidance range of 3%-9%, supported by mix and improved cost structure. This represents our fourth consecutive quarter of gross margin improvement and our third quarter of positive margins since our IPO.
These figures compare to a non-GAAP gross profit of $2.6 million, or 8.2% in the prior quarter, and a non-GAAP gross loss of $8.2 million in the year-ago quarter, with the difference driven primarily by significant improved product direct margins and lower warranty and other indirect costs. Our GAAP operating expenses were $19.7 million on a non-GAAP basis, excluding stock-based compensation and certain other costs. Operating expenses were $13.2 million, compared to $9.1 million in the year-ago quarter. The operating expenses this quarter included an approximate $4 million credit loss related to a specific customer account.
Excluding this charge, our non-GAAP operating expenses would have been $9.2 million, which would be below or better than our guidance range and at the low end of what we've seen over the last two years, as we continue to look for efficiencies across the company while continuing to invest strategically in areas that support our growth. Next, GAAP net loss of $16.9 million, or $0.14 per share, compared to a $10.4 million, or $0.09 per share in the prior quarter, and had a net loss of $25.6 million, or $0.25 per share in the year-ago quarter.
Adjusted EBITDA loss, which excludes approximately $70.2 million, including stock-based compensation expense and other non-cash items, was $97 million, compared to losses of $70.2 million in the prior quarter and $17.7 million in the year-ago quarter. Excluding the $4 million charge as well as the gross margin benefit, adjusted EBITDA would have been at the high end of our guidance range. Finally, regarding liquidity, we had an operational use of cash in the quarter, offset by usage of the ATM facility, for which we received $13.4 million of cash in the quarter, and we ended the quarter with $31.5 million cash on the balance sheet.
We continue to hold no debt on the balance sheet, have a largely available credit revolver, as well as $65 million remaining under the ATM program at the end of the quarter. With that, let us turn our focus to the outlook. Based on our current view and including the project delays that Patrick mentioned, we expect fourth quarter revenue to be down sequentially, with margin reflecting the lower absorption. We expect this to be followed in the first quarter by a fairly substantial revenue recovery as projects ramp. As Patrick mentioned, we have a great deal of gross margin runway ahead of us, and we expect the trend, particularly as the revenue grows, to largely be up.
Specifically, our targets for the fourth quarter call for the following: revenue between $18 million and $28 million, non-GAAP gross margins between -$1.3 million and $2 million, or between -7% and +7% of revenue. Non-GAAP operating expenses between $10 million and $11 million, and finally, adjusted EBITDA loss between $13 million and $2.5 million. For the first quarter of 2024, we expect to see about a 96% sequential revenue growth at the midpoint, with improvements in all categories. Specifically, revenue between $40 million and $50 million, non-GAAP gross margin between $3.2 million and $6.3 million, or between 8% and 13% of revenue.
Non-GAAP operating expenses between $9 million and $10 million, and finally, Adjusted EBITDA loss between $7.3 million and $3 million. Looking forward, we continue to feel good about the opportunity for a strong revenue recovery in 2024 and achieving profitability. With that, we conclude our prepared remarks, and I will turn it over to the operator for any questions. Operator?
Operator (participant)
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, to ask the question, please press star one one on your telephone and then wait to hear your name announced. To withdraw your question, please press star one one again. Please stand by while we compile the Q&A roster. Our first question comes from the line of Philip Shen with Roth. Your line is open.
Philip Shen (Managing Director and Senior Research Analyst)
Guys, thanks for taking my questions. First one here is on the guidance for Q4 and Q1. I think it came in lighter than what the street was looking for in a meaningful way. You talked about in your prepared remarks that you'll see a ramp up and it's been impacted by module delays. Is it fair to say that you guys have been more exposed to the LONGi detentions as opposed to Jinko? Because Jinko's been flowing pretty smoothly for some time now, and then recently only, you know, LONGi was able to get their OCI poly module released. And so as that starts to ramp, would you expect much a better kind of expectations ahead as a result of that detention release from LONGi? Thanks.
Bill Michalek (VP of Investor Relations)
Hey, Phil. So I'll, I'll start and then let Patrick continue. So we historically, in our backlog, we did have a fair amount of modules from that, from that supplier that were associated with our projects. Many of those have, during the AD/CVD process, found different modules to move forward with. So it's, it's fair historically, but I think that's been changing. And Patrick, I don't know if you'd add anything there.
Patrick Cook (Chief Commercial Officer)
Yes. And so I'd say the other thing, too, when you think about kind of Q4, Q1, you know, we've had some projects kind of move to the right in terms of the overall revenue ramp. You know, the 1 gigawatt project that you know, we'll be delivering here, and then the 700 megawatt project that we signed last quarter and are in process of delivering. So you're going to see a lot of that baseload revenue get shifted into 2024, which is why we're so optimistic about you know, kind of the future prospects, is because we've got you know, that 1.7 gigawatts plus already kinda in the hopper and delivering. So we're very excited about that.
Philip Shen (Managing Director and Senior Research Analyst)
Great. So, you know, we've seen a fair amount recently about the challenges with some project delays as a result of, you know, elevated rates for a long period of time and so forth. Can you walk through the rationale for each of those project push-outs? If you touched on it earlier, sorry if I missed it, but just curious if you can give a little more color as to why the 1-gigawatt and the 700-megawatt projects were pushed to the right.
Patrick Cook (Chief Commercial Officer)
No, you know, I think from a just overarching perspective, what we're seeing is, you know, a rise in financing cost obviously is creating a little bit longer duration as projects reach kind of FNTP or LNTP, and you're seeing, you know, those types of projects move. Interconnection has also been a little bit of a challenge. You're seeing kind of a little bit of grid issues, grid congestion, and that's, you know, having those projects ultimately pushed to the right, you know, more than what we've traditionally seen in the past. Obviously, module availability is getting better, but, you know, we're seeing increased rates in financing and, and interconnection is kind of the current challenges in the market.
Philip Shen (Managing Director and Senior Research Analyst)
Okay, great. Thanks, Patrick. One last one for me, I'll pass it on. As it relates to working capital, you know, you have a healthy amount of cash, $30 million, but you have a bunch of cash tied up in accounts receivables at $71 million and pretty high day account. Just wondering if you can talk us through balance sheet, working capital, how you expect to manage through. Thanks.
Cathy Behnen (CFO)
... Yeah, so this is Cathy. We feel very confident. Our cash position will, you know, be flat to a little improved by the end of Q4. We have some chunky receivables we expect to be coming in in Q4. And, you know, with the ramp that we're seeing and the move to profitability, we're confident in kind of where that stands on our balance sheet.
Philip Shen (Managing Director and Senior Research Analyst)
Great. Thanks, Cathy. In terms of why, why are the receivables so chunky at this point? I mean, or why are they so high? Is there just, are there some-
Cathy Behnen (CFO)
Yeah.
Philip Shen (Managing Director and Senior Research Analyst)
Is this another kind of reflection of what's going on in the market, where some of your customers might be trying to preserve cash?
Cathy Behnen (CFO)
Yeah, I think that's exactly what we've seen. You know, some financing changes on our customer side, you know, also making the have pushed out some of the receivables. So we have some that are a large receivable that we're expecting to see come in in Q4.
Bill Michalek (VP of Investor Relations)
That was the receivable that we'd mentioned a lot, that we expected to come in last quarter. It actually looks like it's going to come in now this quarter 7.
Cathy Behnen (CFO)
That's right.
Bill Michalek (VP of Investor Relations)
That's the, that's the bigger chunk of it.
Cathy Behnen (CFO)
It moved to the right.
Philip Shen (Managing Director and Senior Research Analyst)
Got it. Do you have a credit facility? Can you talk about the capacity available?
Patrick Cook (Chief Commercial Officer)
Yeah. Yeah, we have a revolving credit facility. Right now, it's $100 million. You know, we've got about $1.5 million-$2 million pretty de minimis amount that's ultimately utilized. It's traditionally used for letters of credit to support projects. You know, as we've gotten more credibility within the market, we haven't had to tap in and ultimately utilize it, so it's remained undrawn and untapped. So we've got, you know, more than $95 million available under the line.
Bill Michalek (VP of Investor Relations)
But as a quarter end-
Philip Shen (Managing Director and Senior Research Analyst)
Great. Thank you for all the detail, guys.
Bill Michalek (VP of Investor Relations)
The $5 million.
Philip Shen (Managing Director and Senior Research Analyst)
Oh, good. Sorry, go ahead.
Bill Michalek (VP of Investor Relations)
I was going to say, so we can utilize throughout the quarter, we can utilize the full amount or. And then, but at the quarter end, there's $5 million available left on the, on the revolving.
Philip Shen (Managing Director and Senior Research Analyst)
Okay, thanks, guys. Pass it on.
Bill Michalek (VP of Investor Relations)
Thanks, all.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. Please stand by for our next question. Our next question comes from the line of Donovan Schaefer with Northland Capital Markets. Your line is open.
Donovan Schafer (Managing Director and Senior Analyst)
Hey, guys. So thanks for taking the questions. I first want to ask, you know, with the, so with the transition with the CEO and the CFO, kind of wondering, you know, if Shaker's still on, maybe we can get a response from him on this. But, you know, if, if the issue here is kind of the way everything, the way you guys are describing it and all these dynamics that are out of your control, it seems, or at least being framed that way, but also, you know, lined up for ex- acceleration. I think the word acceleration was used a lot, in the prepared remarks. If all that's lined up that way and, and, and unfolding as best as possible within what you can control, you know, then, then why, then why replace the, the CEO and CFO?
You know, or otherwise, you know, more candidly, you know, what is the board's view of what's going on here? And tied to that, you know, why should we continue to put faith in, you know, Q1 guidance, you know, the Q1 guidance, Q4 guidance, and even the backlog at this point? You know, has all that been reviewed and re-reviewed by the board? Any clarification would be helpful.
Bill Michalek (VP of Investor Relations)
So in terms of the guidance, I'm going to let Cathy speak to this. But I think the view is to de-risk the guidance. That's why you saw some lower numbers. I think the company feels comfortable with what we're putting out for Q4 and Q1. And, Cathy, I don't know if you want to add to that.
Cathy Behnen (CFO)
Yeah, Donovan. You know, yes, the answer is yes. We've gone through it project by project, and you know, my goal is to you know, provide guidance that I can be confident in, and and that's what, that's what we've done. We have you know, a very clear view into the ramp in Q1, so very confident with that.
Donovan Schafer (Managing Director and Senior Analyst)
Okay. And then... Actually, sorry, did anyone else want to comment on that question? Okay, well, then, as a follow-up, talking about, you know, if module imports have improved, you know, we've talked before about that really being the hang-up and, you know, the backlog being skewed towards 2P projects, and that those tend to be more complex sites. And so those would move to the back of the queue. Since module supply has improved so much, it feels like, you know, those waiting in the wings should have been able to kind of kick into gear and start going. Or otherwise, you know, that narrative is kind of broken down.
If, if it's just interconnect and, you know, financing now, is there a reason on those aspects why you guys would be disproportionately impacted? I mean, I mean, some peers of, of-- you know, it's not that peers haven't been impacted at all, but it seems like you are still being disproportionately impacted. So if it's, if it's not the modules, then how is the disproportionate impact landing on you guys around financing and, interconnects?
Patrick Cook (Chief Commercial Officer)
So I'll talk to the module piece. You know, we are seeing modules ultimately come in, and Donovan, you're right. You know, 2P sites are inherently, you know, ultimately more complex. But if you think about developers and how they engage with the EPCs, you know, they're building out their kind of construction schedule. So,
Amit Dayal (Managing Director of Equity Research)
... you know, a lot of the 1P sites are still continuing to get done. And, you know, some of the, the 2P sites, just based on EPC availability, are still, you know, kind of forecasted to go, you know, mid- to late 2024 and into 2025. And those schedules are being set in Q3 and Q4, ultimately, of 2023 as they build some of these, you know, 150- to 200-megawatt sites.
Bill Michalek (VP of Investor Relations)
To add to that, in general, you know, we've seen some of the same things you've just said, industry have seen around, you know, financing, panels, labor, permitting, renegotiating PPAs. I mean, those types of things we have talked about last quarter are seeing a general pushout in backlog. Around the 2P, we have a number of projects that if they were scheduled to move forward with the project but they didn't have modules, they've renegotiated from now. So a project that would've been scheduled to go, you know, six months ago, maybe is now gonna go in late 2024 and 2025. And so that's the new schedule for that particular project, but that's the only other thing I'd add there.
Donovan Schafer (Managing Director and Senior Analyst)
Okay, and then-
Shaker Sadasivam (Chairman)
Bill and Donovan, this is Shaker. I'm sorry, I had trouble with the audio, and I can address the question with the leadership change. And Donovan, again, thank you for the question. You know, we talked in the prepared remarks about repositioning the business, you know, that we have. The work that we've done in the last two years. And essentially, a lot of the work we've done has improved our cost structure and the competitive positioning. The organization is also a lot leaner, and we have filled, you know, gaps in our product portfolio. And really, you know, in the April-May timeframe, we were very optimistic on the business outlook. But really, what was happening, we were not getting the POs.
So the board, it really started getting into the details, and we found a lot of opportunity for improvement in just the basic, blocking and tackling and execution issues. In particular, we found there were opportunities to accelerate decision-making and how it was coordinated across the organization, closing gaps with product portfolio faster, and increasing customer interaction, you know, so there's better linkage between revenue forecast and PO attainment. So that's the reason for the change, and hopefully, that answers your question.
Donovan Schafer (Managing Director and Senior Analyst)
Okay, yeah, that is helpful. And then just if I can get one last question on the credit charge. So with the $4 million credit provision tied to one customer, can you clarify, is that a case where, you know, you guys and the customer, there's agreement, or they share your understanding around the idea of, you know, what is the total amount of monies owed for, you know, goods and services provided? Or is it actually and they just don't have, you know, and they're just not paying it, or is it a case where they're actually, in some way, disputing or they don't share your view, and they don't think they owe or have reasons for withholding that $4 million?
Cathy Behnen (CFO)
Hi, Donovan. Thanks for the question. No, there's no dispute. The customer understands the value of the receivable. It's strictly a collectibility and ability to pay issue.
Donovan Schafer (Managing Director and Senior Analyst)
Okay, that's very helpful. Okay, thank you, guys. I'll take the rest of my questions offline.
Bill Michalek (VP of Investor Relations)
Thank you. Please stand by for our next question. Our next question comes from the line of Amit Dayal with H.C. Wainwright. Your line is open.
Amit Dayal (Managing Director of Equity Research)
Thank you, good morning, everyone. Most of my questions have already been addressed, but, I was just wondering if you had any projects that have been canceled. I know backlog is a little bit higher, but, are there any project cancellations that, you know, are impacting near-term results and outlook?
Shaker Sadasivam (Chairman)
No, we haven't seen... Thanks for the question. We haven't seen any projects that have been canceled, just pushed to the right.
Amit Dayal (Managing Director of Equity Research)
Okay, understood. And in non-UFLPA orders, I think you guys gave a number last quarter. I don't see it this time. Maybe I missed it. Could you tell us what that number looks like?
Shaker Sadasivam (Chairman)
Yeah, I mean, in terms of the non-UFLPA, for the awards that we signed up this quarter, all of those are not subject to UFLPA, and all the projects have panels.
Amit Dayal (Managing Director of Equity Research)
Okay. Thank you. Thank you for that. So, so, you know, given you have, you know, pretty, a pretty positive, outlook for 2024, do you think you potentially could see sequential improvements through the year in 2024, you know, after the bounce back, say, relative to Q 2023? Or do you not have, you know, any, any visibility at this point to kind of give us that kind of outlook?
Bill Michalek (VP of Investor Relations)
So we haven't guided 2024 beyond Q1 for 2024. But you know, we had indicated in that last call that we expect the ramp to start in Q4. Now, you're seeing that ramp start now here in Q1. So as these projects, particularly the almost 700-MW project, is one example that Patrick called out, that's one that's gonna contribute here in Q4 and ramp in the next quarter. So that kind of give you an indication of, you know, how we'd expect things to start to ramp on those projects that we talked about last quarter.
Shaker Sadasivam (Chairman)
I think the one thing to kind of piggyback off that is, you know, if you look at, you know, a 1-gigawatt+ project and you know, nearly 700-megawatt project-
Patrick Cook (Chief Commercial Officer)
... You know, once those projects start flowing, you're getting kind of that recurring base load of revenue. So the project isn't having this, like, stop and start. So there's, you know, kind of a linear progression of revenue that's gonna stretch over multiple quarters. So now that we've got some of these larger projects that are ultimately delivering, it gives us a further visibility on, you know, how much revenue that we're gonna get in any given quarter from those projects. And then it's just adding new projects kind of along the way that are ultimately gonna start. So, you know, converting from our current contract and awarded, finding new projects in conjunction with, you know, these two large projects, plus several others that are, you know, ramping at the end of Q4 or in Q4 and into 2024.
Amit Dayal (Managing Director of Equity Research)
Right. So we could potentially be in a situation where we see year-over-year improvements through all four quarters next year?
Bill Michalek (VP of Investor Relations)
We definitely feel good about our growth prospects in 2024, and definitely revenue growth and margin improvement, for sure.
Amit Dayal (Managing Director of Equity Research)
Thank you. Just one last one on the 1P offering. You know, how much of the backlog or how much backlog for that product in the, you know, overall backlog number?
Patrick Cook (Chief Commercial Officer)
The majority of, if you look at the kinda contract and award, the majority of the backlog is, are, are two in portrait tracker. And that really ties to the fact that the two in portrait-- two in portrait tracker has been around since, you know, 2017, and we brought it to market in 2019, and we didn't bring the, you know, 1P Pioneer until, you know, late Q3. And so, you know, we haven't had the, the time to build that, you know, 1P, backlog that we had with- that we have with 2P. Now, we are seeing a lot of, you know, a lot of being offered to, to bid on projects, a lot of, activity around Pioneer, and the constructability benefits of it.
And we expect to, you know, start building out our backlog of our 1P as we, you know, kind of get through Q4 and into the coming quarters.
Amit Dayal (Managing Director of Equity Research)
Okay. Understood. Thank you, guys. That's all I have. Appreciate it.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. Please stand by for our next question. Our next question comes from the line of Pavel Molchanov with Raymond James & Associates. Your line is open.
Pavel Molchanov (Managing Director)
Yeah, thanks for taking the question. Can we get an update on your manufacturing joint venture, which I think is now, you know, maybe a quarter or two since it started operating?
Bill Michalek (VP of Investor Relations)
Yeah, I'll start on that one. So all the equipment's installed, and we've been doing qualification runs. We got some revenue facility in the, in the current quarter, here at Q4, and get larger in 2024. And Patrick, I know your name is-
Patrick Cook (Chief Commercial Officer)
Sorry, Pavel, go ahead.
Pavel Molchanov (Managing Director)
No, please. Yeah, go ahead.
Patrick Cook (Chief Commercial Officer)
No, I was gonna say, you know, Bill's right. I mean, you know, that facility is up and running. We've got projects going through it currently. And if you look at, you know, some of the projects that are, you know, in delivery, in shipment in Q4 in 2024, the anticipation is that we'll be utilizing that facility. And when we're going to market with new bids or new quotations, you know, use and production of that facility is kind of at the forefront right now.
Pavel Molchanov (Managing Director)
Is there uplift in gross margin that you are anticipating once that facility is fully ramped up?
Bill Michalek (VP of Investor Relations)
So at this point, we're not making any benefit from 45X into the, into our, into our current guidance. But Cathy, is there anything else you want to add to?
Cathy Behnen (CFO)
No. You know, we do expect to see, you know, continued improvement in our margin, and that facility will, you know, support that as well.
Pavel Molchanov (Managing Director)
Okay. I know you're not giving formal guidance yet, beyond Q1, but as you sort of zoom out on 2024 as a whole, do you anticipate being a cash user or a cash generator?
Cathy Behnen (CFO)
Well, we're moving, we see a crossover into profitability in 2024. So we expect to be generating cash in 2024.
Pavel Molchanov (Managing Director)
All right. Thanks very much.
Bill Michalek (VP of Investor Relations)
Thanks, Pavel.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. As a reminder, ladies and gentlemen, that's star one one to ask the question. Please stand by for our next question. Our next question comes from the line of Jon Windham with UBS. Your line is open.
Jon Windham (Head of Alternative Energy and Equity Research of Environmental Services)
Hey, great. Thanks for taking the questions. I guess the first one, just quickly, any commentary from the board on the status of a CEO and CFO permanent replacements and the parameters of which internal versus external candidates, and what sort of timeframe investors should expect on permanent replacements? Thanks.
Shaker Sadasivam (Chairman)
All right, John, this is Shaker. Thank you for the question. So the board, like I said, you know, we have been involved with the details of the company over the last three months and trying to understand what's going on. And for now, we feel that the best team to take us forward is Patrick, Sasan, and Cathy, with oversight from the board. And we do not want to rush into a CEO succession, primarily because, you know, there's a urgency with which we need to get things done, and we need to take our time in finding a good CEO. And so for both those reasons, we'll be very deliberate to make sure we have positioned the company well.
We have, you know, the team that we have now has got a tremendous amount of operational depth. They're also going to be guided by a board with a lot of operational depth. You know, and Ahmad is going to act as a facilitator, and he played a similar role at Enphase, you know, between 2017 and 2020. So I think we feel good about the team that we have, and we want to take our time in getting the CEO in place. In terms of CFO, you know, Cathy is a very accomplished person to take that role, and we will decide on, you know, a replacement, either internal, external, or to have Cathy going forward in the subsequent months. Hopefully, that answers your question.
Jon Windham (Head of Alternative Energy and Equity Research of Environmental Services)
Yeah, it did. Appreciate it. And then on a completely separate topic, obviously there's, I, I think a healthy amount of skepticism around the $1.6 billion backlog. It's essentially the same size as a competitor's that has 13 times, the annual revenue. Is there any thought about taking an opportunity to provide more transparency on specifically what's in the backlog, like specific projects? Is there anything to stop the company from disclosing specific projects? Again, I think just a little bit of comfortability with just a portion of the backlog would provide a lot of peace of mind for investors. Just your thoughts on that, and I really appreciate you taking the questions. Thanks.
Bill Michalek (VP of Investor Relations)
We've actually gotten that question recently, and we actually did some work on that towards doing that. We didn't present it this quarter, given the changes that we announced, but that's something that over the next few months is something we can either put out or mention on our next call. But it's definitely something that we're looking to do in some form or another.
Jon Windham (Head of Alternative Energy and Equity Research of Environmental Services)
Great. Be well.
Bill Michalek (VP of Investor Relations)
Thank you.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. Please stand by for our next question. Our next question comes from the line of Julian Dumoulin-Smith with Bank of America. Your line is open.
Alex Vrabel (VP of US Power, Utilities and Cleantech)
Hey, guys, it's Alex Vrabel for Julian. Maybe just actually a follow-on to that question on sort of the makeup of the backlog and the opportunity I'll frame it as, I guess, to provide a little bit more transparency. I know you guys obviously talked about UFLPA, or I guess, U.S., non-UFLPA orders, but also international as sort of being a shorter cycle, faster ramp than some of the stuff we're seeing in the U.S. Just curious, you know, what's the status of that piece of things? Clearly, things still look a little bit challenged.
And just curious, I mean, as far as these slippages, are you seeing the same thing internationally, versus the U.S., where obviously the rates environment is still high, but you know, a little bit more muted depending on kind of where you're exposed? Thanks.
Patrick Cook (Chief Commercial Officer)
Yeah, I mean, I think if you look at... Thank you for the question. I mean, I think if you look in the regions in which we operate, you know, obviously the U.S. is the largest portion. That's where we've had the longest kind of sustained presence. And some of the new geographies that we're seeing, you know, certainly there's interconnection and financing challenges. We haven't seen it to the extent that we've seen it ultimately in the U.S., but that's a function of, you know, kind of our early entrance into those markets. So we haven't been in them for four or five years, where you're working on large 500, 600, 700 MW projects.
You know, traditionally in places like Spain and Italy, where there's not a lot of free use land, you know, most of the projects are, you know, sub-100 MW. So those move forward and take the PO a little bit, a little bit faster. But if you look at places like Australia, you know, they have interconnection issues ultimately as well, but it's more exacerbated here in the U.S. than we've seen.
Alex Vrabel (VP of US Power, Utilities and Cleantech)
Got it. Makes sense. When you guys think, I guess, moving forward, I mean, clearly some, you know, recovery contemplated for Q1 at least. I think what's interesting is you guys, obviously, to your point, Patrick, started as a 1P company, sort of shifted to doing both, at this point and also sort of broadened the commercial base, outside of the U.S. It seems to us that there's a little bit of a, you know, I don't know what you'd call it, a flight to quality, or to certain EPCs or players in the space. There's a little bit of a have and have not.
I'm curious, I mean, as you guys look to sort of reposition the business for growth off of a higher margin base, how do you think about sort of targeting that more directly? Is it, we just need to win more 1P? Again, is it, hey, international looks more attractive than the U.S.? I mean, how would you sort of frame the strategy from here, I guess, beyond converting the existing backlog?
Patrick Cook (Chief Commercial Officer)
Yeah, no, that's a great question. I mean, I think, you know, obviously, we're very excited about the U.S. market. We're excited about the, the 1P Pioneer that we have to offer. And, you know, certainly, you know, the top EPCs are the ones that are getting, you know, a majority of the business, and we're, you know, we're penetrated with, with, with those accounts. And the one nice part is we're able to sit down with, you know, those top-tier EPCs and ultimately developers and really design a project that's agnostic between 1P and 2P and really maximize, the, the, the site based on, you know, the, the goals of that EPC or, or, or developer. And I think that's been a differentiator for us. You know, continuing to expand, I mean, double down in the U.S., continue to win projects.
That's what we're, you know, that's a, that's a big focus for us. But, you know, continuing to grow our footprint internationally as well. So if you think about, you know, how we—our boots on the ground strategy for the U.S., you win several projects, and then they grow and get bigger, and you've developed kind of a, a base load revenue, and you've got, you know, kind of a fact pattern out there. We did the same thing in Australia, where we've done over two dozen projects there, and we're, you know, we're relatively well penetrated. We recently won awards in Spain and Italy, and we plan on delivering those in early 2024. So that gives us a, a stronger foothold in Europe and a proof point for us to build a, a base around.
And then also, you know, as Bill mentioned, continuing to expand in markets like South Africa, where, you know, we've delivered several large projects and expect to continue to grow that market, ultimately as well. And, you know, the commonality amongst those are, it's markets in which, you know, our value proposition of constructability and quality hold true, and that allows for the margin expansion. You know, we're not looking to, you know, participate in markets where, you know, we aren't able to achieve profitable growth. And that, you know, is echoed by the comments that Shaker made in his opening remarks.
Alex Vrabel (VP of US Power, Utilities and Cleantech)
Got it. Makes sense, guys. Appreciate the time.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. I'm showing no further questions in the queue. Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's conference call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect. Everyone, have a wonderful day.