Rithm Capital - Q2 2023
August 2, 2023
Transcript
Operator (participant)
Good day, welcome to the Rithm Capital Second Quarter 2023 Earnings Conference Call. All participants will be in a listen-only mode. Should you need assistance, please signal a conference specialist by pressing the star key followed by zero. After today's presentation, there will be an opportunity to ask questions. To ask a question, you may press star, then one on a touch-tone phone. To withdraw your question, please press star, then two. Please note, this event is being recorded. I would now like to turn the conference over to Emma Bolla, Associate General Counsel. Please go ahead.
Emma Bolla (Associate General Counsel)
Thank you, and good morning, everyone. I would like to thank you for joining us today for Rithm Capital's second quarter 2023 earnings call. Joining me today are Michael Nierenberg, Chairman, CEO, and President of Rithm Capital, and Nick Santoro, Chief Financial Officer of Rithm Capital. Throughout the call, we are going to reference the earnings supplement that was posted this morning to the Rithm Capital website, www.rithmcap.com. If you've not already done so, I'd encourage you to download the presentation now. I would like to point out that certain statements made today will be forward-looking statements. These statements, by their nature, are uncertain and may differ materially from actual results. I encourage you to review the disclaimers in our press release and earnings supplement regarding forward-looking statements and to review the risk factors contained in our annual and quarterly reports filed with the SEC.
In addition, we will be discussing some non-GAAP financial measures during today's call. Reconciliations of these measures to the most directly comparable GAAP measures can be found in our earnings supplement. With that, I will turn the call over to Michael.
Michael Nierenberg (Chairman, CEO, and President)
Thanks, Emma. Good morning, everyone, and thanks for joining us. As some of you heard last week, we pre-released earnings in conjunction with the announcement we were acquiring Sculptor. These are really exciting times for us, our shareholders and our LPs. Our strategic measured growth in business lines where we try to create an edge is something we are very proud of. Since inception in 2013, when the company was formed by Fortress to take advantage of price dislocations created by higher capital requirements at the banks, we have executed on that plan, and along the way, we grew and acquired a number of operating companies in the financial services space. Our mission is to continue to do this very same thing we've done for the past 10 years: drive value for shareholders and LPs with teens-type returns.
If you think about where we are in the cycle, interest rates are at some of the highest levels we've seen in 20+ years. Capital requirements in the banking system are headed higher. We are in a period of time where unlevered returns on most of the assets we invest in are between 8% and 12% on an unlevered basis. This period of time, from an investment perspective, is some of the best environments we have seen in years. The time is now. While we are a mortgage REIT, I'd like to think of us as an asset manager operating as a REIT. Yes, we do invest in all types of assets, both good REIT assets and non-good REIT assets, such as consumer loans and operating companies. On to the Sculptor acquisition.
This should be a great one for everyone, Rithm shareholders, Sculptor LPs, and all of our employees at both respective firms. It is truly transformational for all of us. The acquisition adds excellent investment expertise and broadens our overall mandate as we continue to produce results, drive higher AUM, and create more value for shareholders and LPs. The combined platform is powerful. We have a very strong capital base of +$7 billion in equity. We have a global investment business, and we have a +$30 billion balance sheet. I'll now refer to the deck, which has been posted online. The theme of this call from my perspective and our perspective, is to talk a little bit about Rithm, who Rithm is. So I'm going to open with page three.
We changed our slides a little bit just to talk again about Rithm and how the company has grown. Over the past 10 years, Rithm has become a real leader in the real estate and financial services sector. The company, which was launched in 2013 under the Fortress Investment Group, was again set up to capitalize investment opportunities in real estate and the financial services space. What was once solely a manager of mortgage servicing rights when the company was formed in 2013, Rithm has grown into a platform with a diverse and opportunistic portfolio that includes operating companies and a large investment portfolio. The company, which was started in 2013 with $1 billion of equity, has grown to over $7 billion of equity.
Along the way, we've distributed $4.7 billion of dividends to shareholders, and we currently manage a $34 billion balance sheet. Our recent activity during the quarter and subsequent to quarter end has really accelerated our mission to become a leading global asset manager. As we look back in time, in June, while at Fortress, the management contract was internalized, and that goes back to June 2022. In Q4 2022, Rithm launched its private capital business. In June 2023, we acquired $1.4 billion of consumer loans from Goldman Sachs. During the quarter in June as well, we acquired 371 units in our single-family rental space business, called Adoor, from Lennar. In July, we announced the acquisition of Sculptor Asset Management, which is a $34 billion asset manager.
We also agreed to acquire 200 units of newly built home, townhomes from a company called Dream Finders Homes, with equity capital from Rithm and debt provided by Genesis Capital. We continue to execute on our strategic plan, and we're well positioned for new stages of growth. The Rithm team here has worked together through many economic cycles. That includes the great financial crisis, that includes the period of COVID, and we go back to the late 1980s and early 1990s, some of us. The Sculptor $34 billion asset manager complements Rithm's $7 billion of permanent capital, as well as our +$30 billion balance sheet. As we look forward, deal flow is significant. The investment opportunities we're seeing are very, very attractive, and we think that's gonna continue to help us grow our earnings and add value for, again, shareholders and LPs.
On to the quarter. GAAP net income, $357 million or $0.74 per diluted share. Earnings available for distribution, $297 million or $0.62 per diluted share. In that number, there's a $0.20 gain related to the exit to the sale of excess MSRs during the quarter. Our dividend, $0.25, which reflects a 10.7% dividend yield as of June. Our cash and liquidity at quarter end, $1.8 billion. Total equity, $7.1 billion. Page five, the evolution of Rithm. I'm not gonna take you through all of these, but again, the company was started at Fortress to acquire assets that we thought were very attractive as a result of higher capital rules and Basel III capital rules, which were implemented on the banks.
As you look from 2013 all the way out to 2023, the growth has been strategic. The companies and assets we've acquired along the way have been all core to our mission, which is in the financial services space, and the addition of Sculptor now is something that really vaults us into hopefully becoming more of a leader in the alt space, and growing not only the AUM, but again, staying very focused on the same things which got us here, which are results for our LPs and shareholders. Rithm's experience across all asset classes, if you have a look at page six.
We just talk on, on this page, the asset classes that we currently have on balance sheet, the things that we do and the things that we're gonna continue to do as we go forward. Those include residential mortgage loans, single-family rental business, which is called Adoor, which now has over 4,000 units. Our business purpose, our loan business, which is Genesis Capital. As our mortgage servicing rate portfolio, which continues to perform extremely well. We're currently in and around $600 billion there, and that's obviously helped us grow book value quarter after quarter as interest rates continue to rise. On the commercial real estate space, we have an investment, co-investment with GreenBarn. Obviously, we're doing some stuff with Genesis Capital.
And one thing I wanna point out, we have no legacy office, uh, um, in any one of our, uh, either operating companies or investment portfolios with others. On the consumer loan side, I announced we bought, uh, one point four billion of loans from Marcus, from Goldman Sachs, which was under the Marcus brand. If you go back, our experience in that business while at Fortress was, uh, in 2013, we acquired $3.8 billion of loans from Spring Castle or, or from, uh, I'm sorry, HSBC, and that was really the growth which helped propel, um, Spring Castle, uh, to grow into what, what is now known as One Main Financial under the Fortress umbrella. Uh, in 2017 or 2018, I think it was, we acquired Prosper.
We acquired 35% of Prosper for penny warrants, and we did that in consortium with Soros, Third Point, and Jefferies. Around the, you know, our securitized lending and structured products business, obviously, we have a balance sheet, and we do a ton of work in the securitization markets. Page seven, I think, is a very important one. There's a lot of talk, obviously, in the industry about bank regulations, higher capital needs. The one thing I would say about this, typically what this does and again, I'm gonna refer back to 2013, so I'm trying to put some history in here. This creates opportunities for asset managers to acquire assets at very, very attractive levels. We think we're in that period of time.
You know, with SOFR or Fed funds in the mid-fives now, if you think about anything, SOFR plus something, you're gonna get again to that 8%-12% on return spectrum. On the Sculptor deal on page eight, again, just repeating a little bit of, of from last week. Alternative asset manager, $34 billion of AUM as of July. The transaction was valued at $639 million, $11.15 per share. All cash consideration for Sculptor Class A holders. The Class A unit holders are gonna receive consideration in accordance with their operating partnerships, again, based on the $11.15 share price. Class A unit holders are expected to be offered the opportunity to elect to receive cash or new units in a Rithm subsidiary.
From a financing perspective, the transaction will be funded with cash and liquidity on our balance sheet. Sculptor will operate as a separate business unit within Rithm, very similar to all of our operating companies. They'll continue to be led by Jimmy Levin, and will report to me and our management team here at the Rithm level. From an earnings perspective, neutral-ish for 24 and accretive in 25 for Rithm, and we expect to close in early, hopefully early, fourth quarter. Page nine, you know, the rationale for doing this is kind of more the same. We've been pretty vocal about our desire to broaden our reach and our scope, not just as a, you know, away from just being a mortgage REIT, which we don't feel like...
We wanna differentiate ourselves in many respects, in the REIT space. This acquisition really vaults us and helps us grow in the alt space. We've spent a lot of time over the course of the past year, running around the globe, meeting with different LPs. We're very, very excited about our prospects to continue to grow. Again, not just AUM, but more to drive higher returns for our LPs and shareholders. Page 10 is this Rithm 2.0. I think many of you have seen this.
Obviously, the, the difference when you have a look at this slide, the box of operating companies on the lower left side of the page, our investment portfolio, and then as we think about managing private capital, we're really, really excited about the growth prospects of our organization. I'll take you through quickly on our, on some of the results from the second quarter, and then we'll open up for some Q and A. On the mortgage company side, total pre-tax income for the quarter, $327 million. This includes a 19% pre-tax ROE, and that excludes our MSR mark-to-market in the quarter. From an origination standpoint, obviously, higher rates, tough origination markets. Baron and his team have done a great job getting this back to breakeven, to slight profitability in that space.
The one thing I want to be really clear with everybody, and I, I've echoed this many, many times: We don't need to originate a unit, to originate a unit to do volume. We want to originate units that are core to our business, where we, where we're doing something that are going to make money for our LPs and shareholders. Whether we do an extra $1 billion in origination in a channel or $1 billion less in a channel, we care about one thing, obviously, servicing our customers and then driving profitability for our shareholders and LPs. When you look at the mortgage company activity and highlights for the quarter, servicing portfolio, again, in and around $600 billion. This includes both excess and full MSRs. We continue to move mortgage servicing rights from some of our sub-servicers back in-house.
That goes under the NewRez/Shellpoint brand. There's a couple portfolios that will continue to move, and that continues to go on. On gain on sale, a little bit lower, but in general, obviously, with volumes coming off a little bit, you should expect that. Again, core thesis for us, we are not going to originate something that unless it's profitable. As we look at our MSR portfolio, it's doing terrific, helped us grow book value. A lot of earnings coming into the quarter. I would say there's not a ton to report there.
You know, one of the things I would encourage everybody to, to have a look at when you look at recapture rates or you look at apples, you know, all the different mortgage companies that report, whether it's us and/or others, look at apples to apples. If you have any questions on that, I'd, I'd tell you to refer to, to Nick Santoro, our CFO, or, or Baron on some of those questions. MSR portfolio, right now, the WAC is 3.8%. That includes all of the new stuff we originate. Average mark in and around a five multiple, just to give you, for context. On the Genesis business, we expect to do in and around $2 billion, I think, this year. Performance has been great. We love the asset.
You know, most of these things are SOFR plus, anywhere from 500 basis points-700 basis points. We've tightened up our credit box when we think about from an underwriting perspective, and Clint Arrowsmith and that team are doing a great job. Consumer portfolio, I mentioned before, I mentioned the SpringCastle stuff that was under the Fortress umbrella in 2013, Prosper in 2017, and now the Marcus loans. Really, it's an asset play, term funded, you know, up, up until there's a 15% cleanup call at the end. We expect returns there to be 15%-20%. On the single-family rental space, continue to grow. If you recall, in prior calls, we had stopped acquiring units until cap rates increased.
We're now starting to acquire units, whether it be in the build-to-rent space and/or other areas, with higher cap rates. We'll continue to grow that business over time. Obviously, you need to have scale in that business, and we continue to work towards doing that. Our stabilized occupancy in that area is 95%. We still, we still see some, you know, new rent growth, and we're excited about the prospects with where rates are to continue to grow that business. Servicer advance is really nothing to speak about, but the underlying performance of the consumer continues to be extremely strong, and we'll continue to monitor that. Obviously, we have quite a bit of data there, both on the consumer side and on the mortgage side.
With that, I'll turn it back to the operator for some questions.
Operator (participant)
We will now begin the question-and-answer session. To ask a question, you may press star, then one on your touchtone phone. If you are using a speakerphone, please pick up your handset before pressing the keys. If at any time your question has been addressed and you would like to withdraw your question, please press star then two. At this time, we will pause momentarily to assemble our roster. The first question today comes from Eric Hagen with BTIG. Please go ahead.
Eric Hagen (Managing Director)
Hey, thanks. Good morning. got, got a couple questions here. I mean, how do you think the valuations for other mortgage originators and servicers right now is sort of driving your thinking around the value you could pick up in a, in a spin-off of the originator and servicer? Then just from a timing standpoint, at, at what point do you maybe run into issues with the REIT test from having Sculptor folded in here? Thanks.
Michael Nierenberg (Chairman, CEO, and President)
On, on the timing of the mortgage company, we, we announced that we filed a, a confidential S-1. On that, we continue to work hard. You know, with where mortgage companies are trading, you know, I don't know that anybody trades at a significant premium at this point, and quite frankly, they don't. We just think the timing is, is right now, with the scale and, and what, you know, the team has done around the Newrez brand and obviously the Caliber acquisition and all the other stuff we've done there, to bring this company out. I don't, I don't necessarily think that we're gonna, you know, turn around and just sell down the entire thing.
I think it's more to give us flexibility, have a, have a true, operating company that's, that's listed similar in, in ways to what, what, Fortress did with, you know, back then, Nationstar and Mr. Cooper. A similar kind of mindset around that. As it relates to your second question, which, you know, from a good REIT test, you know, Nick sits sitting next to me. You know, we have a ton of experience around how to navigate things, whether it be in taxable REIT subsidiaries and, and other ways. Obviously, we have a, you know, a fairly large agency mortgage book, which helps with the whole pool test, so we don't anticipate any issues. I do think over time, you'll see an evolution, of the company in, in, in our capital structure.
I alluded to that last week. You know, one thing I would tell from an analyst perspective, we're still gonna have a mortgage REIT. You know, if you look at some of the best run and larger alternative asset managers, they have REITs, they have a C corp, they have private funds. I think you should think of us in the same light.
Eric Hagen (Managing Director)
Yep, that's helpful. Thank you very much.
Michael Nierenberg (Chairman, CEO, and President)
Thank you.
Eric Hagen (Managing Director)
Diving into the portfolio a little bit, I mean, how what do you feel like would take servicing valuations higher from here? Like, how sensitive do you feel like valuations for MSRs are to an inverted yield curve? Do you feel like there's any upside for servicing if the yield curve were to steepen from here? Thank you, guys, very much.
Michael Nierenberg (Chairman, CEO, and President)
I think on the on the MSR values, they're fine where they are. You know, you have unlevered yields, I would say, anywhere from 8%-10%. If you do have a view that at some point down the road, and we don't have this view, that in, you know, this year that the Fed's gonna cut rates. Once short rates start coming down and you see better financing terms, I think the levered asset yield will be, you know, in the teens. While saying that, I don't, you know, doing this for a long, long time, I don't see a ton of upside in yield in pricing in the MSR asset right now, but it is a very, very stable cash flow.
You know, I was watching an interview this morning about somebody talking about, you know, where we are and fixed income assets going down in value as rates rise, which is absolutely true. This is the one asset that does go up in value when rates rise. I do think we're getting towards the upper end of, of a value standpoint. Keep in mind, you know, new, new issue MSRs or whatever, four handle, I think, from a, from a value standpoint. There's room for those to go. Some of the legacy stuff that, you know, with the 3% gross WAC that were originated during the, you know, the days of COVID, when rates essentially went to zero, will only prepay if you see housing turnover. I think there's limited upside.
For us, you know, we're monitoring where rates are and, you know, you're gonna start to see us put more rate hedges on against that asset as we go forward.
Eric Hagen (Managing Director)
Thanks, Michael. Appreciate it.
Michael Nierenberg (Chairman, CEO, and President)
Sure.
Operator (participant)
The next question comes from Bose George with KBW. Please go ahead.
Bose George (Managing Director)
Hey, guys, good morning. Had a couple on Sculptor. First, is there any tangible equity coming with the transaction, or is there a goodwill sort of equivalent to the purchase price?
Nick Santoro (CFO)
We expect the tangible equity to be about $300 million-$350 million. There's approximately $200 million-$250 million in goodwill, Bose.
Bose George (Managing Director)
Okay, great. Thank you. Then, you know, to the extent the Marcus deal was done after Sculptor closed, is that the kind of asset that, you know, could end up there going forward?
Michael Nierenberg (Chairman, CEO, and President)
Yeah, you know, I think at, at this time, you know, both organizations are gonna be running separate organizations. Obviously, the Sculptor deal is not closed, Jimmy and that team will continue to lead, you know, their, their business. No different than what we do, you know, at the Genesis level or the mortgage company level. Again, it's a wholly owned operating sub, is the way that I view that. Yeah, I mean, I mean, the possibilities are endless. I mean, the one thing I would say is, you look at our balance sheet, you look at, you know, most alternative asset managers don't have larger balance sheets. I think KKR does. You know, there's, there's a lot of work, you know, to be done here.
If you look at our balance sheet today, you know, on our loan side, we look at our loan book, and I think the, the, where that's carried is probably a 15, 15+% return. You know, why should we not take that, work with our, you know, the, our new partners at Sculptor and drop that into a fund? It would reduce our balance sheet. We'd create more, we'd create some capital, and we'd create, you know, more AUM, and then we drive more earnings through our, our, you know, asset management business, which theoretically, those earnings are gonna get valued signif- significantly higher than the way our earnings get valued at, at the REIT level.
Bose George (Managing Director)
Okay, that makes sense. Thanks. Then just, rates are up a bit since you guys pre-announced. Just wondering if we could get just an update on book value?
Michael Nierenberg (Chairman, CEO, and President)
I would I would assume it's, you know, in and around, about the same at this point.
Bose George (Managing Director)
That's-
Michael Nierenberg (Chairman, CEO, and President)
You know, 12.15 to 12.25, something in, in that range.
Bose George (Managing Director)
Okay.
Michael Nierenberg (Chairman, CEO, and President)
I don't think there's any material move for us right now.
Bose George (Managing Director)
Makes sense. Okay, great. Thanks.
Michael Nierenberg (Chairman, CEO, and President)
Thank you.
Operator (participant)
The next question comes from Douglas Harter with Credit Suisse. Please go ahead.
Douglas Harter (Director)
Thanks. What is the timeframe that you expect to see, you know, additional assets, kind of come available from, from the banks, from regulatory changes? Do you think you'll be kind of up and running with third-party capital, to take advantage of that?
Michael Nierenberg (Chairman, CEO, and President)
I think the, the answer is, it's, you know, we're seeing it now. Obviously, the Marcus loans. Goldman made a decision to get out of, you know, that line of business, and clearly, with a number of our, our relationships, we took advantage of, of that. I would tell you our pipeline of investments, whether it be co- company investments and/or asset investments, that we're working on is, is pretty significant right now. It's here, it's now. You know, you look at... I'm just looking at some news feeds as we're, as we're chatting here. You know, the ADP number for, from an employment standpoint is well above expectations this morning. You got an employment report tomorrow. That will likely move rates higher, and we're, and we're seeing that.
As, as we go forward and think about capital in the from a third-party standpoint, not only on, on the scope and on, and listen, the Sculptor folks have a, you know, a pretty significant capital formation team. Hopefully with this transaction, we will be able to, or the Sculptor team will be able to leverage that and grow AUM. I look at what we've done on the Rithm side and, and kind of my travels through this year with some of my other colleagues here. I think there's plenty of capital to be partnered with us to take advantage of this stuff now.
Douglas Harter (Director)
Great. Then just on the, on the Marcus deal, I was wondering if you could give us a little more detail about, you know, kind of the price paid, for, for those loans.
Michael Nierenberg (Chairman, CEO, and President)
I don't, I don't, I don't think we disclosed it. Did we disclose it? Did Goldman disclose it?
Nick Santoro (CFO)
We did not.
Michael Nierenberg (Chairman, CEO, and President)
Yeah, you know, what I would say is, it's a, it's a discount to par, term financing, essentially, with a 15%-20% return and roughly a 10% coupon, you know, with higher FICO borrowers.
Douglas Harter (Director)
Okay, appreciate it.
Michael Nierenberg (Chairman, CEO, and President)
Thanks, Doug.
Operator (participant)
The next question comes from Giuliano Bologna with Compass Point. Please go ahead.
Giuliano Bologna (Managing Director)
Hello, good morning, and congratulations on a, a great quarter. Maybe, going along this, you know, similar lines to some of the other questions. I, I'd be curious over time, you know, now that you'll potentially have Sculptor, you know, in a number of months here under the Rithm umbrella, is there a focus on shifting more of the AUM to externally managed? Obviously, you're talking about, you know, potentially doing an IPO as part of the mortgage company and pushing more assets potentially into different fund vehicles. Is there a general sense of kind of what your capital allocation, you know, should look like going forward? Or if you want the Rithm side of the equation to be smaller from an AUM perspective, and then just continue to expand the asset management side at a much higher rate?
Michael Nierenberg (Chairman, CEO, and President)
Yeah, I think asset management businesses get value. You know, one of the strategic things for us is, we wanna raise third-party AUM, and we've been very, very clear about that. The Sculptor acquisition helps us do that, under that, under that umbrella. You know, last week in, in our announcement, you know, we were pretty clear we're not gonna go out and issue equity here, or we don't intend to anyway. You know, when we're trading at, you know, book values, you know, 12.25, whatever that number is, and our stock trades in and around $10, we're not gonna issue equity here.
Based on that and the opportunities for investment that we see today and going forward, it's our desire to, to work with third-party LPs and grow our business away from our existing balance sheet, you know, from a capital perspective and in third-party markets. That's, you know, that I mean, that's, that's where we're headed. If we, if we're successful in doing that, which I believe we will, and, you know, you look at some of the larger asset managers and how they've, you know, raised capital, we're going to be very successful, and our valuation on our, on our equity should go significantly higher. That's really what the goal is. It's saying, to improve our, our equity valuation for shareholders and continue to drive, you know, real results for LPs and shareholders.
Giuliano Bologna (Managing Director)
That, that sounds great. Then thinking about, you know, You obviously mentioned there's, you know, a strong pipeline out there of opportunities. When you're looking at opportunities at this point, are you focused more on, you know, assets, or are there any other operating platforms that, you know, you could add that would be accretive or, you know, related to the other assets that you're involved in at the moment?
Michael Nierenberg (Chairman, CEO, and President)
I would say both. You know, if, you know, we, we wanna do things where we think we have a reasonable edge or where, where we could create value. If we could do things that are 15%-20% returns in today's interest rate environment, you know, I think we're gonna try to pounce on that and seize that. Right now, that's kind of where, where we are. If it's an operating company, and we're working on some of those now, or it's a, a cheap pool of assets, we'll, we'll look at both.
Giuliano Bologna (Managing Director)
That's great. Thank you for answering my questions, I'll jump back in the queue.
Michael Nierenberg (Chairman, CEO, and President)
Thank you.
Operator (participant)
The next question comes from Trevor Cranston with JMP Securities. Please go ahead.
Trevor Cranston (Managing Director)
Hey, thanks. Good morning. One more on the Sculptor deal. When you guys talk about it being, you know, neutral to earnings in 2024 and accretive in 2025, can you sort of take us through, you know, what it is that makes it accretive in 2025? If there's any sort of assumptions baked into that in terms of AUM growth or anything like that? Thanks.
Michael Nierenberg (Chairman, CEO, and President)
Yeah, I think we're, we're not assuming a lot of AUM growth. I think it, it comes down to some of the results that are already existing in their, in the portfolio of investments today and when they're realized. You know, the expectation is that 2024 and 2025 should be good years for realizing a number of the results as a result of prior investments made. You know, the Sculptor team has a -- you know, they have some great, great business lines. And as we start to see results come through from earlier investments, you're gonna start to see, I think, a good pop.
I think when you, when you take a step back and look at the valuation of, of the company and, and kind of how we valued it and think about the relationship there, and I know Jimmy for probably 10-12 years now, or actually more. You know, the, the, that platform and the ability to drive results for LPs is, is pretty significant. That's what gets us really excited about this acquisition. We can't look at everything like a day one thing. You know, we do have to have a vision, a vision as we build business lines, and that's one of the things that I think we've been very successful on, at and on doing. You know, you take a step back and you look at, you know...
One of the reasons I wanted to give a little bit of revisionist history on the Fortress side. You know, you go back to 2013 when, when Wes Edens and Randal Nardone came up with, you know, we could make excess MSRs a good REIT asset. That started the growth of New Residential, which was spun out of Newcastle. Financial engineering and being able to create value for shareholders, you may not see it all day one, but it's something that, as we look forward, we have a vision that goes out not just quarter to quarter, but something that's a little bit longer than that.
Trevor Cranston (Managing Director)
Sure. Okay, I appreciate that. Thank you.
Operator (participant)
As a reminder, if you would like to ask a question, please press star, then one to be joined into the question queue. The next question comes from Kevin Barker with Piper Sandler. Please go ahead.
Kevin Barker (Senior Equity Analyst)
Thank you. Just in relation to the S-1 that you filed, within the mortgage company, are you including all of the origination and servicing segments, including, you know, the servicing segment and the MSR-related investments, or would that be broken up as well, whether it's in the mortgage REIT or in the mortgage company?
Michael Nierenberg (Chairman, CEO, and President)
It, it's, it's likely gonna be most, but not all assets, or not all MSRs that, that will go in there, because some are held at the, what I would call the Rithm level, and the sub there is NRM. Mostly it's, it's all the origination, it's most of the servicing stuff. Some MSRs may stay back. Again, it, it's one of these, TBD things, you know, as we continue to work through it.
Kevin Barker (Senior Equity Analyst)
Okay, you discussed having a mortgage REIT as well, possibly the asset manager, right? Obviously, with the Sculptor deal. Would the mortgage REIT basically have all the real estate securities and the property and residential mortgage segments that you have existing now, or would there be other segments embedded within the mortgage REIT?
Michael Nierenberg (Chairman, CEO, and President)
You know, I, I think it's TBD. You know, you look at what. You know, Blackstone, I, I used this analogy last week. They have BXMT, which is a commercial REIT. I think the way that we're thinking about it is likely in a similar vein, but there's a lot of I mean, clearly, we just announced the deal last week, so we have a, we have a lot of work to do on it from a capital structure standpoint. You know, the one thing I wanted to emphasize on this call is we are still gonna have a mortgage REIT and a, and a large mortgage REIT in that. The asset management business will, will grow. We'll likely have a C corp.
You know, from a structure standpoint, we just want to figure out a way that we're going to increase, one, is our shareholder price, and then, two, be able to grow AUM, which will feed into that and, and hopefully, hopefully drive that significantly higher.
Kevin Barker (Senior Equity Analyst)
Okay. then this quarter, you're pretty... You know, you were selling MSRs. You obviously de-emphasized those. I believe there was, you had.
Michael Nierenberg (Chairman, CEO, and President)
We didn't sell any MSRs. We just did an excess trade.
Kevin Barker (Senior Equity Analyst)
Just an excess trade. Okay. Do you anticipate doing several more of those, in order to-
Michael Nierenberg (Chairman, CEO, and President)
Yeah, there'll be, there'll be more, there'll, there'll be more coming up, whether it's this quarter or next quarter, I, I just don't know. There'll be more excess, more excess MSR deals done.
Kevin Barker (Senior Equity Analyst)
Thank you.
Michael Nierenberg (Chairman, CEO, and President)
Thank you.
Operator (participant)
This concludes our question and answer session. I would like to turn the conference back over to Michael Nierenberg, CEO of Rithm Capital, for any closing remarks.
Michael Nierenberg (Chairman, CEO, and President)
Thanks for joining us this morning. Have a great rest of the summer. Appreciate the support. Super excited where we are as an organization, and let's go.
Operator (participant)
The conference is now concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation. You may now disconnect.