UWM - Earnings Call - Q1 2025

Executive Summary

• Q1 2025 revenue beat while GAAP EPS missed due to a large negative MSR valuation; revenue was $613.4M vs $558.8M S&P Global consensus (+9.8%), but GAAP diluted EPS was -$0.12 as MSR FV fell $388.6M; S&P “Primary EPS” printed $0.024 vs $0.045 consensus (miss). Revenue/EPS estimates from S&P Global*.
• Origination volume was $32.4B (+17% y/y), with purchase at $21.7B and refinance nearly doubling y/y to $10.6B; gain-on-sale margin was 94 bps (vs 105 bps in Q4).
• Guidance: Q2 2025 production $38–$45B and gain margin 90–115 bps; CEO expects to “eclipse $40B” given purchase strength and tech rollouts; dividend maintained at $0.10 per share.
• Strategic catalysts: in-house servicing (ICE MSP) targeting material cost savings and better recapture; expanding AI stack (Google Cloud Gemini) with tangible throughput gains; these underpin volume scalability and potential medium-term margin durability.

What Went Well and What Went Wrong

What Went Well

• Revenue beat: $613.4M exceeded S&P Global consensus $558.8M (helped by servicing and interest income; LPIs at $304.8M, servicing income $190.5M, interest income $118.1M). Revenue estimates from S&P Global*.
• Execution on volume and refi capture: $32.4B total (+17% y/y), with ~$10.6B refi (nearly 2x y/y) after a brief late-Feb/early-Mar rate dip, showing operating leverage in demand windows.
• Operational KPIs: submission-to-CTC cut to 12.7 days (from 13.9), NPS 87.3%—both best-in-class vs peers running 40–45 days, supporting share gains and repeat business.

What Went Wrong

• Profitability: GAAP net loss of $247.0M driven by a $(388.6)M MSR fair value decline; Adjusted EBITDA fell to $57.8M as gain margin slipped to 94 bps (from 105 bps) and expenses remained elevated for growth investments.
• Underperformance vs EBITDA consensus: S&P Global EBITDA consensus $167.4M vs actual Adjusted EBITDA $57.8M (approx. -66%); definitional differences may exist, but margin compression and higher costs weighed on results. Estimate from S&P Global*.
• Equity and leverage optics: total equity fell to $1.64B (from $2.05B in Q4) and non-funding debt/equity rose to 1.93x (from 1.66x), partly reflecting MSR FV movements; analysts probed leverage, which management downplayed as not central to the thesis.

Transcript

Operator (participant)

Good morning. My name is Abby, and I'll be your conference operator today. At this time, I would like to welcome everyone to the UWM Holdings Corporation First Quarter 2025 Earnings Conference Call. All lines have been placed on mute to prevent any background noise. After the speaker's remarks, there will be a question-and-answer session. If you would like to ask a question during that time, simply press star followed by the number one on your telephone keypad. If at any time you would like to remove yourself from the queue, please repress star one. Thank you. Mr. Blake Kolo, you may begin your conference.

Blake Kolo (Chief Business Officer and Head of Investor Relations)

Good morning. This is Blake Kolo, Chief Business Officer and Head of Investor Relations. Thank you for joining us, and welcome to the First Quarter 2025 UWM Holdings Corporation's Earnings Call. Before we start, I would like to remind everyone that this conference call includes forward-looking statements. For more information about factors that may cause actual results to differ materially from forward-looking statements, please refer to the earnings release that we issued this morning. Our commentary today will also include non-GAAP financial measures.

For information on our non-GAAP measures and metrics, and the reconciliation between the GAAP and non-GAAP metrics for the reported results, please refer to the earnings release issued today, as well as our filing with the SEC. I will now turn the call over to Mat Ishbia, Chairman and CEO of UWM Holdings Corporation and United Wholesale Mortgage.

Mat Ishbia (Chairman and CEO)

Thanks, Blake, and thank you, everyone, for joining today. I'm very excited for what we accomplished this quarter on many fronts and for what lies ahead here at UWM. We will continue investing in technology to widen the gap between us and our competition. Regardless of how the industry or markets may change due to technology race, we will continue to lead the way. Since 2022, the mortgage brokers' channel share of the industry is up almost 40% from about 19.7% to almost 28%, the highest level we've seen since 2008, I believe. This is incredible growth that we are very excited about.

I say this a lot, but I would ask all of you to go back and listen to our earnings call from early 2023, or even 2022 or 2021, but 2023 when we talked about game-on pricing and how we were going to invest in the business, invest in the channel to grow. Many people were concerned about lowering the margins like we did. However, I knew, and we knew, it would be best for the broker channel long-term. The current numbers prove that we made the right decision, and we're just getting started with all the success from that decision years ago. Switching gears, I want to address a topic that many of you recently inquired about. Last week, we announced a strategic decision to bring servicing in-house. This is something we've been contemplating for many years.

However, we believe now is the time to make this investment.By leveraging the latest technology and AI, our plan is to be the most efficient servicer in America. We are excited to control this part of the process and look forward to the cost savings that we will achieve, which some people can estimate between $40 million and $100 million a year. We're very excited about that opportunity once we get this fully done and going. During our past few earnings calls, we discussed how UWM is uniquely prepared to win in any type of market. With the significant volatility of the past couple of months, we've showcased that preparation several times.

When there were brief periods of low rates, our refund and operational excellence enabled us to double our daily production levels without sacrificing speed, quality, or service. When the rates were higher, we demonstrated our continued dominance on the purchase market.The numbers tell an even better story, so let's get into them. We closed $32.4 billion in production for the quarter, obviously within guidance, and that's a 17% growth year over year, which outperformed the whole industry. We also delivered about $10.6 billion in Refund volume, almost double what we delivered in the first quarter of 2024. A large portion of that came in a small window between the end of February and the beginning of March, really illustrating the power of our business.

The gain margin was 94 basis points. While we posted a $247 million net loss, I want to make sure everyone realizes that this is inclusive of a $388 million reduction of fair value of our MSR portfolio. As we've discussed several times, we have zero control over this MSR value, whether it goes up or down, so it's really not that relevant to me.We did have an amazing quarter, and we're profitable on all the measures we look at. I want to highlight two other key operational metrics. First, our submission to clear to close for the quarter was 12.7 days. While some of the best in the industry are still running 40-45 days, 12.7 is outstanding.

Beyond that, we improved this metric by over a day from 13.9 in the first quarter of 2024, despite doing almost 20% more business. As you see, our AI initiatives and things that we've been rolling out actually impacting the business day to day by seeing that speed and success. Second, our net promoter score for the quarter was 87.3. You know, companies with NPS in the 60s and 70s are viewed as world-class.This is one of the best NPS scores in the last couple of years and reflective of our industry-leading service levels, which you know from our experience will continue to drive more volume in the second quarter and beyond. As you can see, this is another really strong quarter for UWM.

While the macro environment may remain choppy, we will continue to invest and win. I can promise you there is no other mortgage lender that is better equipped and prepared to help brokers, borrowers, regardless of what the market does. We are excited to show it to you as soon as the opportunity shows. I'll now turn the call over to our CFO, Rami Hasani. He is a new CFO here at UWM, has been a key member of our finance team since 2020, and he was the obvious choice to become our next CFO.I'll turn it over to you, Rami.

Rami Hasani (CFO)

Thank you, Mat. I appreciate it. Jumping into the numbers, Q1 2025 revenue of $613 million, net loss of $247 million, inclusive of a $388 million reduction in the fair value of our MSR portfolio, and adjusted EBITDA of $58 million. As we've discussed before, our focus continues to be on investing in our people, processes, and technology, as well as our broker partners to prepare UWM and our brokers collectively for continued growth in 2025 and beyond. We continue to invest in growing our operations, underwriting, and technology teams to support increased production volume, which we experienced in Q1 of 2025 compared to Q1 of 2024, a 17% increase.

We continue to originate more than $20 billion a quarter in purchase volume for eight quarters in a row, and we view that as our base, a base that no other lender can approach.We almost doubled our Refund volume year over year from $5.5 billion to $10.6 billion, despite the rate environment being less than optimal. While our costs have increased compared to Q1 2024, our costs are substantially aligned to Q4 2024, which is on strategy for investing for continued growth. More specifically, we believe our business is currently in a position to handle twice our 2024 origination volume with minimal impact to our fixed costs. We also maintain our liquidity and capital and leverage ratios within what we believe to be acceptable ranges in the current environment.

As of the end of Q1 2025, we had $485 million of cash, $2.4 billion of total accessible liquidity, and an MSR portfolio with a fair value of $3.3 billion. Overall, a strong liquidity position.In summary, Q1 2025 was a period of continued investment in operational capabilities to remain prepared for what we see as significant market opportunities for UWM and our broker partners. We have also continued to remain prepared for these opportunities from a capital and liquidity perspective, and we believe that we remain well-positioned operationally and financially for any market cycle. I will now turn things back over to our Chairman, President, and CEO, Mat Ishbia, for closing remarks.

Mat Ishbia (Chairman and CEO)

Thanks, Rami. I'll close with a couple of quick points before the Q&A. The way I think about the business is really simple: volume, gain margin, and expenses. We're winning on all of these. The expenses part, we're investing in the business, and we feel great about it, even though they're higher in Q1, because those are investments, investments in the growth and success of our business. The gain margin was a little lower in Q1, but we were trending higher overall, and our volume was up 17% year over year. That's how we run the business. As long as we manage these three things, we will continue to dominate. We are the leaders, not just in the mortgage business, but also the leaders in tech here at UWM.

The things that we are rolling out in the next few weeks and months are game changers.Just so you guys know, whatever you think you know about our business and how dominant we are, it's about to change in a big way. We're about to roll out some things from the best technology you've ever seen or heard of, and it's coming real soon, like not 2030, like 2025 and 2026, the cool things we're going to be doing that will impact the business. Also, as I talk to a lot of our large shareholders and investors, I consistently get the message about getting more float in the market. As you guys know, I own about 87% or control 87% of the shares.

Back in March, I put out a 10b5-1 program that you'll see in the 10Q that will go into effect June 17th to basically get more float and make it a consistent process rather than some of the one-off things we've done to try to increase float, which we've done a good job of. Now we'll be consistent across the board where you know exactly what to expect. There will be no more uncertainty and no more creative ways to get float out there. We're going to be consistent with the 10b5-1.Although I believe, even when I did the documents back in March, it's undervalued, I believe that if I sell enough float to get out there and get more float in the market, the other 80%, 81%, 82% of shares I own still after this next year or two that we do this will be worth much, much more.

We are excited to hopefully serve what the shareholders want. On top of that, on the shareholder side, we are excited to announce our dividend again. We are going to consistently pay the dividends we have for four-plus years now, as you guys know. Even at these share prices, it's a fantastic deal, but we always reward our shareholders, and we have been for years, and we are excited about rolling that out again this quarter of $0.10 or $0.40 for the year is what we have been doing.Lastly, I'm very excited that many of you on this call and over 5,000 of our clients from all 50 states are going to be here in Pontiac next week for UWM Live. It's going to be a performant and eventful two days that will hopefully change the industry in a huge way.

I can't wait to share with you what we got going. Now, quickly on guidance, we expect our second quarter production to be between $38 billion and $45 billion. As a reminder, we did $33.6 billion in Q2 of 2024. I think in the last three years since, I don't think we've done over $40 billion. I'm actually hoping we eclipse the $40 billion range and dominate this quarter as we really see the purchase market being strong and opportunities for us to continue to grow here at UWM.Now, with the gain margin, I expect it to be between 90 and 115 basis points before. As I said, we control this and we decide what we think is best, and it'll be between 90 and 115 in the second quarter as we continue to help our brokers win and grow their business as we continue to grow as well. Now I'm going to turn it over to Q&A and look forward to talking to all of you guys.

Operator (participant)

At this time, I would like to remind everyone, in order to ask a question, press star then the number one on your telephone keypad. If at any time you would like to remove yourself from the queue, please repress star one. At this time, we will pause momentarily to assemble our roster. We will now begin the question and answer session. Your first question comes from the line of Eric Hagen with BTIG. Your line is open.

Eric Hagen (Managing Director)

Hey, good morning, guys. Hope you're doing well. On moving the servicing in-house, I mean, what kind of timeline are you looking at? Can you talk about any one-time costs, other resources, or investments you need to make that happen? Are you, how does it maybe improve the recapture effort as a result of bringing it all in-house? Thanks, guys.

Mat Ishbia (Chairman and CEO)

Yeah, thanks a lot, Eric. Appreciate it. Yeah, like you know, everything we do, we do fast. Our expectation is to bring servicing in-house and start boarding loans at the beginning of 2026 and hopefully have it all in-house by the end of next year, if you think of it that way. We will be able to see those significant expense reductions. At the same time, as you pointed out, the more important part is, one, the recapture rate, but two, the service levels we can provide the consumers. The consumers get such amazing service working with a mortgage broker with UWM, and then maybe they do not get that same feel all the way through the process when they are paying their mortgage payment for the next couple of years.

They will have that now because we will control that process 100%.In addition to that, recapture will be even easier to help communicate with the borrowers on behalf of our brokers and make sure our brokers can stay in front of their clients. Recapture has actually not been a huge issue for us. It's actually we do pretty good. Our brokers are doing better and better with that. The big thing is cost savings, control of the process, make it so it's a better experience for consumers, and then thus they're going to want to work with UWM even more. We are excited about that change and that investment we're making, but there are no huge one-time expenses or costs that are going to change anything that would make it even hit the radar on the financial side.

Eric Hagen (Managing Director)

Yep. Gotcha. Definitely support that move from you guys. Imagine almost all of the production last quarter was fixed rate loans, but at what point do you think ARMs make a comeback? Do you see that being a compelling affordability product for borrowers, especially right now? Are you in the position to competitively offer ARMs? How do you think a shift to adjustable rate loans could maybe get valued in the MSR market if the intention is to sell those loans?

Mat Ishbia (Chairman and CEO)

Yeah. Obviously, as rates go up, ARMs become more exciting, especially with the yield curve being more normalized. With that being said, people still think ARMs is a four-letter word, and people are scared of ARMs. I do not think many people, so how much ARMs will it be? Could it be 10%? I mean, 15%? I do not think it gets close to those numbers. I do not think it is relevant. I do not think it is really that important. We do have some ARM programs. We do some of it here and there. Most consumers, and then rates, the 10-year goes down to 4.10 or 4.05, and no one will touch an ARM again, right? It just depends on the situation, the market. ARMs are probably more of a refund program.

We're doing some temporary buy-downs, which is an interesting thing on a purchase, which kind of gives them a little bit lower rate for the first 12 or 24 months, and then it sets them up for future refinance down the road if rates go down like everyone expects. ARMs are interesting, but I don't think they're as viable and as big of an opportunity as maybe they were five, seven, eight years ago from my perspective. We are prepared, and we do a little bit of it, and we will probably do a little bit more, but it won't be meaningful enough that it will hit your guys' radar.

Eric Hagen (Managing Director)

Yep. Gotcha. Thank you for the color, and look forward to seeing you guys next week.

Operator (participant)

Your next question comes from the line of Bose George with KBW. Your line is open. Please check your mute button. Your line is open.

Bose George (Managing Director)

Sorry about that. I was muted. Good morning. Actually, I just wanted to follow up on the MSR question. Actually, given the change with servicing in-house, could that change how you dispose of MSRs? Could you hold more MSRs to capture more value that way as well?

Mat Ishbia (Chairman and CEO)

Yeah, absolutely. We look at all those things all the time. We were not selling MSRs because we were sub-servicing it. We're not going to hold them because we're servicing it ourselves. We're going to be opportunistic like we always have. Now, the fact that we control the process and we can control the experience even more, it makes me lean a little more towards retaining more of it, but it's all dependent on the opportunities. Once again, people want to offer me six and a half, seven multiples, seven and a half multiples on MSRs. I have a lot of MSRs, right? Those opportunities are there. The reality of it is understanding what's best for the business is what we always think about.

What's best for our clients, as in the brokers? What's best for consumers? What's best for our team members?What's best for our shareholders? We look at all those things. We think bringing servicing in-house is best for us at this point. It's been an inflection point. We've been 50/50 for a while on it, and we kind of pushed ourselves over the edge recently. We're excited about that savings, that experience enhancement. Once again, could it make us hold MSRs differently or think of it? Absolutely, but we're looking at all things at all times.

Bose George (Managing Director)

Okay. Great. In terms of GSE reform, obviously, there's a lot of noise on potential privatization. Can you just talk about what you're hearing and anything you might be doing in terms of preparing for that potentially happening?

Mat Ishbia (Chairman and CEO)

Yeah. I mean, I think that that stuff's way, way far in the future if it even happens. Here's what I'd say about it. I think you've got great leaders now running the mortgage market, from FHFA Director Bill Pulte to HUD Director Scott Turner. You've got people on top of the mortgage business. Obviously, all that goes up through the president. I think people that actually care and understand it, so I think they're going to make the right decisions for all of us. My view on it is, whatever happens, we will win with it because we are nimble. We react quickly. We make changes, and we impact the business and our brokers in a positive way. If nothing changes, we'll continue to win that way. Nothing's changing as of now.

I think the best part is you have great leaders in the FHFA Director, the head of HUD, and people that actually care and want to do what's best for consumers and the mortgage lending landscape and the housing market in general, and they understand it, which is a little bit different than maybe we've had in the past.

Bose George (Managing Director)

Okay. Great. Thanks a lot, and looking forward to next week.

Mat Ishbia (Chairman and CEO)

Look forward to seeing you there too.

Operator (participant)

Your next question comes from the line of Jeff Adelson with Morgan Stanley. Your line is open.

Jeffrey Adelson (Executive Director)

Hey, good morning, guys. Thanks for taking my questions. Matt, I was wondering if you could just maybe help us understand what's sort of embedded in the second quarter outlook. I know you mentioned being hopeful you can get over the $40 billion mark, but I'm just wondering, is that more of a stable environment, great environment from where we're sitting today, or just maybe help us understand what else is feeding into that?

Mat Ishbia (Chairman and CEO)

Hey, thanks, Jeff. Nice to connect with you, buddy. I guess I would say this. It's not like interest rates are real low and I'm saying, "Let's do $40 billion plus." I'm saying we've been building. We've been investing. All these things are happening. The broker channel is now at its highest. It's been since 2008. All the things that we've been talking about for years are starting to happen. Now, have rates drop a little bit, and we won't talk about $40 billion. We'll talk about $60 billion, right? There's opportunities right there, and we're ready to do that tomorrow if the 10-year dropped, right?The way I look at it is, I am trying to guide you guys towards that, "Hey, we haven't hit over $40 billion since the refund boom times, and we are going to do that this quarter."

I know I got it $38-$45 billion, but I expect us to do over $40 billion. That is a big statement compared to what we did last year in the second quarter, compared to what we did even in this first quarter this year, where everyone else is kind of hovering. Our investments have been working. Our broker channel is winning. On top of that, the technology stuff that is going to come out in the second quarter, Jeff, I think you are going to be here at UWM Live along with a lot of people on this call. It is going to blow your mind.It was just the beginning, just the beginning of what we're doing. You will understand the strategy even more as you see the things we're doing. Brokers are going to grow.

UWM is going to grow, and we're all going to win together.Watch out because if rates drop, I got bigger numbers and different things. If they do not, you see where we're trending and how we're doing things, and that's what we're going to keep doing.

Jeffrey Adelson (Executive Director)

Okay. Great. Thanks. Obviously, there's been a big deal in-house in this space. I'm just sort of wondering, do you guys have a view of how that might change competition in the space, if at all? What's United's own view on M&A as well as what's going forward in addition to all the tech enhancement you're looking to roll out here? Is there anything that you'd be looking to maybe bolster your own tech ambitions in the space?

Mat Ishbia (Chairman and CEO)

Yeah. You broke up a little bit at the beginning. You said because of M&A?

Jeffrey Adelson (Executive Director)

Oh, yeah. I was just saying there was obviously a big transaction in the space from one of your competitors. I'm just sort of wondering your reaction to the impact on competition in the space.

Mat Ishbia (Chairman and CEO)

Oh, Yeah. I guess my take, and I think in general, my take is we look at everything and opportunities from an M&A perspective, but we're a build versus buy type of company. I can buy something and then make you guys feel really good, and you guys can try to pump my stock price for a little bit, but it wouldn't be the right decision for our long-term business. Now, there are things that we look at and we could buy. From a technology stuff, I mean, I'm not going to go out and buy a bunch of these companies and try to pump my stock, whatever the words you want to use, and spend billions and billions of dollars potentially just to get a couple more leads. Our business is organic.

It's been dominant, and it will continue to be dominant. Now, we're opportunistic. If an opportunity comes up, we always look at it, but that's really not the strategy right now. The strategy is let's dominate. Same thing on the tech side. The tech side, people want me to go buy this company that could do this, that could come up with some AI stuff, or I'm just going to sit here with my almost 2,000 technology people and build the best stuff in the world. That's kind of how I lean on that stuff. We're open to everything, and everyone has their own strategy, and we're going to keep doing it our way, but we're always opportunistic if the right thing came up.

Jeffrey Adelson (Executive Director)

Okay. Great. Thanks for taking my questions. See you next week.

Mat Ishbia (Chairman and CEO)

You too.

Operator (participant)

Your next question comes from the line of Mikhail Goberman with Citizens. Your line is open.

Mikhail Goberman (VP Equity Research)

Hey, good morning, guys. Thanks for taking the question. Excited to hear about these technological changes coming up and just wondering how do you guys expect those changes to affect the expense base going forward? Thanks.

Mat Ishbia (Chairman and CEO)

Good question. Yeah, the technology enhancements, the AI investments, how's it going to impact expenses? I mean, we're going to continue to invest. Will our costs go down? Absolutely. Will our revenue go up? Absolutely. If those are the things you care about and focus on, you'll probably be happy with all the things we're doing. That being said, I'm obviously not going to roll out or explain what I'm doing now on this call, but we look at all these things. On the expense side, the fixed costs are kind of at a peak based on where we think of things, but realize that you think they're higher. The way I look at it is I'm just investing, and other people can't. They can't afford to invest right now. We are prepared.

Like I just said on, I think, a question or two ago, we're going to do $35 billion-$40 billion-$45 billion a lot of these quarters, and we're going to do some great things. Then rates drop a little. We'll do $60 billion. Nobody else can do that. Our gain on sale margin will be higher, our volume will be higher, and our expenses will basically stay the same from a fixed perspective. Imagine that, and that's how we were built for business, where nobody else can prepare for that. We feel good. I think our expenses, as you will say, are up 25% from last year's first quarter. Oh my goodness, our volume is up 17%. There's an 8% delta.I think that's pretty good, to be honest with you, based on the amount of investments and stuff that we've been working on.

I focus on investing in the business in the future. I'm not focused on expenses. If I was focused on expenses as my primary thing, we would not be prepared to dominate as we are right now. When that domination continues, I mean, we've been dominating for three, four years now, as you guys have seen, but it's a whole nother level what you'll see in the near future.

Mikhail Goberman (VP Equity Research)

All right. Thank you, Mat. Appreciate it.

Operator (participant)

Your final question comes from the line of Doug Harter with UBS. Your line is open.

Douglas Harter (Equity Research Analyst)

Thanks. In your prepared remarks, you talked about being comfortable with the leverage range that you're in right now. Can you just maybe put some numbers around that? What is kind of the target non-funding debt to equity range that you're looking at?

Mat Ishbia (Chairman and CEO)

Doug, that stuff is not the focus of the business. We're really in a great position on that stuff. I know you like to focus on things that are not relevant, but that's not relevant. What's relevant is the domination of our business. We're built to succeed and win. Every single ratio, our ratios are in a great position, and I can let Rami speak to that stuff. The truth is, that's just like someone that looks at a spreadsheet all day is asking me that question, not someone that actually understands the mortgage business and our industry and what we're trying to do. Come out to UWM Live. I think you're going to be there, so you'll understand the tech investments, what we're doing, our non-funding debt ratios. All those things are in great position.

We feel really good about our cash position, our net worth, all of our ratios, and we have a lot of room in there to continue to grow. I think you'll see that stuff after the second quarter, and I think you'll be excited to see those numbers go the ways you might like.

Mikhail Goberman (VP Equity Research)

Great. Thanks.

Operator (participant)

That will wrap up the Q&A portion. I would like to turn the call back over to Mat Ishbia for closing remarks.

Mat Ishbia (Chairman and CEO)

Hey, thanks to everyone for the questions. We're really happy with the quarter, to be honest with you, and I'm actually even more excited about the second quarter. We feel like we're in a great, great position as a company. I like to say never been stronger because I know what we're about to roll out and how we're going to do different things over the next 3 - 12 months. In general, I appreciate all your support. I look forward to seeing a lot of you at UWM Live. It really means a lot to us. I look forward to spending time with you guys there and talking about the business and where I can open up a little bit more about all the great things we're doing here.

It's going to be a lot of great things coming out soon and then soon after that as well. Thank you for the time. Have a great day, and I look forward to seeing you guys soon.

Operator (participant)

Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's call, and we thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.