Westport Fuel Systems - Q4 2023
March 26, 2024
Transcript
Operator (participant)
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Sylvie, and I will be your conference operator today. At this time, I would like to welcome everyone to Westport Fuel Systems Q4 2023 conference call. Note that all lines have been placed on mute to prevent any background noise. After the speaker's remarks, there will be a question and answer session. If at any time you require operator assistance, please press star zero, and to get in the conference queue, you would need to press star, followed by one on your telephone keypad. If you would like to withdraw from the question queue, simply press star then number two. I would like to turn the conference over to Ms. Ashley Nuell. Please go ahead.
Ashley Nuell (VP, Head Investor Relations)
Good morning, everyone. Welcome to Westport Fuel Systems fourth quarter conference call for the 2023 fiscal year. This call is being held to coincide with the press release containing Westport's financial results that was issued yesterday. On today's call, speaking on behalf of Westport is Chief Executive Officer and Director, Dan Sceli, and Chief Financial Officer, Bill Larkin. Attendance on this call is open to the public, but questions will be restricted to the investment community. You're reminded that certain statements made on this conference call and our responses to certain questions may constitute forward-looking statements within the meaning of the U.S. and applicable Canadian securities laws. And so as such, forward-looking statements are made based on our current expectations and involve certain risks and uncertainties. With that, I'll turn the call over to you, Dan.
Dan Sceli (CEO)
Thanks, Ashley, and good day, everyone. I'm pleased to join you on my first call as CEO and Director of Westport. Today, I'll be covering our strategic objectives from 2023, recapping our highlights from last year, and providing an outlook for 2024. I'll then turn the call over to Bill to walk us through our Q4 and annual results. I wanted to start by hitting some of the key highlights and top-line numbers for 2023. With the recent announcement of the signed investment agreement, we are excited to be in the last stage of finalizing our HPDI joint venture to accelerate the commercialization and global adoption of Westport's HPDI fuel system technology for long-haul and off-road applications. We are now working towards closing the joint venture and ensuring it's set up for success from day one.
Touching on our financials, for the full year, we generated revenue of $331.8 million, as compared to $305.7 million in 2022. In addition, we continued to delivering improved gross margins, both in dollar terms and as a percentage revenue, with total gross margin for 2023 of $48.9 million or 15% of revenue, as compared to $36.2 million or 12% of revenue in 2022. We improved our adjusted EBITDA by over $6 million to -$21.5 million in 2023, as compared to a loss of $27.8 million in 2022. My first two months with Westport have been a great adventure.
I have visited all our main facilities, gained a deep understanding of our technology and products, and learned about Westport's strengths and what improvements need to be made to optimize our productivity. After assessing Westport's current situation, I established three main priorities for the company in 2024 and beyond, including 1, driving success via our HPDI joint venture with Volvo. 2, improving operational excellence. 3, reimagining a hydrogen-powered future. To ensure that Westport achieves growth and success over the long term, we need disciplined operations that flow from a strong strategic plan. These priorities are consistent with that need and are expected to elevate the performance and the value of our business long into the future. However, in the near term, we have already begun to act in a more disciplined way by cutting costs and making headcount reductions where necessary.
As an example, in 2023, our overall headcount declined compared to the previous year, primarily due to the necessity to scale down operations at our facility in Argentina, the consolidation efforts in Italy, and closing of our production plant in India. We expect this trend to continue and for our overall headcount to decline compared to certain financial metrics, like gross margin, as we increase our discipline and focus on operational excellence. I am also excited to announce that earlier this year, we delivered the first LPG fuel system to our global OEM customer. This program is a demonstration of exactly the type of work that our light duty business should be undertaking. We were able to secure a multi-year program and deliver against this program with minimal capital expenditures and no expansion to our production footprint.
Regarding Asia, our recent pivot in India is proving to be beneficial so far. We are seeing some benefits from our restructuring, and our new approach appears to be net positive. This includes leveraging our local partner to deliver components and systems into this market, which is one of the fastest-growing markets in the world. Regarding China, facility construction is underway and capital investment for the assembly lines and other equipment is in progress. Recently, the regulations associated with hydrogen components have changed in China, resulting in a slightly longer timeline to complete the certification of the initial products we plan to launch in China. We therefore anticipate production will commence in the second quarter of 2025 rather than later in 2024, as originally expected. Westport is fortunate to be part of a compelling industry in which alternative fuels are seeing increased support and investments.
Many industry experts believe that over the next six years, alternative fuels will become more affordable and easier to access. Government policies and regulations are also being implemented to support this shift, as hydrogen fuel stations are beginning to populate the transportation corridors across the EU. By 2030, we expect to see a significant change in the alternative fuels industry. That aligns with Westport's goals of offering more hydrogen fuel-based options to support the future of sustainable transportation. I also wanted to highlight our recent efforts around the commercialization of our products across multiple modes of transport. We are at the intersection of innovation and sustainability, and each program I am about to discuss represents another step forward in the pursuit of cleaner, more sustainable energy solutions. First, in November of 2023, we announced a collaboration with a leading global OEM in the rail industry.
This partnership aims to adapt our hydrogen HPDI fuel system for applications in locomotives and related equipment used in freight and transit rail sectors. By leveraging the power of hydrogen, we hope to contribute to a greener future for rail transportation. Secondly, in December, Westport proudly announced a monumental development program with a global heavy truck manufacturer. This program focuses on adapting our next generation LNG HPDI fuel system to meet the stringent Euro 7 emissions requirements for heavy-duty vehicles. With a significant investment of $33 million, funded by the OEM, we are working diligently to integrate cleaner energy solutions into the transportation sector. Lastly, we are engaged in a proof of concept project with a global supplier of power solutions for marine applications. Beginning this quarter, this project will explore the use of our HPDI fuel system, fueled with methanol for marine propulsion.
With the support of our OEM partner, we aim to explore alternative, sustainable energy sources for maritime transportation. Methanol is easier to handle, requires less room and less expensive to bunker on a vessel, and it has a lower CO₂ footprint than emissions-intensive fossil fuels. The testing of HPDI technology for use with methanol in a marine application is a natural extension of our HPDI technology. We expect that our HPDI fuel system with methanol will be able to provide similar torque, power, and efficiency to diesel, while also potentially reducing NOx emissions. These initiatives represent more than just technological advancements. They embody our unwavering commitment to a brighter, greener future for generations to come. Through collaboration, innovation, and dedication, Westport is leading the charge toward a world where sustainability and progress go hand in hand.
Together, we are embarking on a journey towards a future defined by a cleaner, healthier future for all. Regarding the progress of our HPDI joint venture, as I mentioned above, the investment agreement has been signed. We are in a good place to start working on closing the joint venture and hope to have it operational prior to the end of the second quarter. However, we still have a lot of work ahead of us. Even once the JV is closed, as a company, we still must invest significant time and energy into supporting its growth as it begins its journey as a standalone enterprise. Volvo and Westport have collaborated for over 15 years and share the vision of creating sustainable transport solutions. We look forward to a long and prosperous future with the Volvo team.
With that, I'll hand it over to Bill, who will walk you through our financial results. Bill?
Bill Larkin (CFO)
Good morning, and thank you, Dan. In the fourth quarter of 2023, we generated $87.2 million in revenue. This is a 12% increase compared to $78 million in the prior year period. For the full year, we generated revenue of $331.8 million. This compared to $305.7 million in 2022. For the fourth quarter, the revenue improvement was primarily driven by an increase in our light-duty OEM volumes, electronics business, and engineering services from the heavy-duty OEM business, which were partially offset by lower sales volume in the independent aftermarket, heavy-duty OEM volumes, light OEM and fuel storage businesses. In our independent aftermarket business, increased sales volume in Europe were more than offset by lower volumes for Africa and South America.
Gross margin increased $8 million or 9% of revenue in the quarter. This is up from $4.6 million or 6% of revenue in Q4 of 2022. Gross margin for the full year was $48.9 million or 15% of revenue, as compared to $36.2 million or 12% of revenue in 2022. Higher sales volumes across multiple businesses and increased gross margin in our heavy-duty OEM business, driven by the higher engineering services revenue, drove improvements in our gross margin. However, gross margin was offset by higher production costs stemming from global supply chain challenges and inflation, specifically in logistics and labor costs. We're continuously working with our customers to pass through the impacts of cost increases where we can.
Lastly, we did record $5 million in inventory write-downs during the fourth quarter of 2023, which $4.5 million related to our heavy-duty business and negatively impacted our gross margin. Including the impact of the inventory write-downs, gross margin for the quarter would have been approximately 15% of revenue. In the fourth quarter of 2023, adjusted EBITDA was a loss of $10 million. This is an improvement compared to a loss of $12.9 million in Q4 of 2022. Total adjusted EBITDA loss for 2023 was $21.5 million, as compared to a loss of $27.8 million in 2022. The improvements in revenue and gross margin drove positive improvements in adjusted EBITDA, which were partially offset by higher research and development expenditures to further invest in our hydrogen and light-duty OEM businesses.
Increases in G&A expense, which include $4.5 million of severance costs, increases in sales and marketing expenditures to support hydrogen marketing activities, as well as increased corporate expenses, including consulting and legal fees related to ongoing activities to include finalizing our HPDI joint venture. We expect this trend with respect to increased costs associated with the setting up our joint venture to continue through the first half of 2024 as we move forward towards closing. OEM revenue for the fourth quarter of 2023 was $61.2 million, as compared to $47.8 million the prior year period, and $222.8 million for the full year of 2023, compared to $198 million for 2022.
The increase in revenue for the fourth quarter is primarily driven by increased sales volumes in light-duty OEM and electronics businesses, as well as higher engineering services revenue from our heavy-duty business. This was partially offset by lower sales volumes in our heavy-duty OEM volumes and the light-duty OEM business. The gross margin in our OEM business expanded in the quarter, increasing to $800,000 or 1% of revenue, an increase from negative $800,000 or negative 2% of revenue in Q4 of 2022. Gross margin in our OEM business for the full year of 2023 increased to $25.3 million or 11% of revenue. This compared to $13.6 million or 7% of revenue in 2022.
The increase in gross margin for the fourth quarter was driven by an increase in revenue, partially offset by the $4.5 million inventory write-down in the heavy duty business. Specifically, this write-down relates to a shift in a customer's priority regarding the engine platform on which our development work is ongoing. On the LPG side of our business, we're excited to start shipping our Euro 6 fuel systems to our global OEM customer earlier this year. As a reminder, this program includes both Euro 6 and Euro 7 deliveries and expected to generate approximately EUR 255 million in revenue through 2028. Affordability drives the buying decision in the LPG market.
Currently, on average, the cost of LPG in Europe is less than half the cost of petrol or diesel, and our products enable customers to take advantage of these fuel price differentials. Independent aftermarket revenue for the fourth quarter of 2023 was $26 million, compared with $30.2 million in the prior year period, and $109 million for the full year of 2023, compared to $107.7 million for 2022. Lower sales volumes in Africa and South America markets drove down the quarterly decline, partially offset by higher sales volumes in Europe. Despite the decrease in our Q4 2023 independent aftermarket revenue, our gross margin increased to $7.2 million or 28% of revenue, compared to $5.4 million or 18% of revenue in the prior year period.
Margins for the quarter were primarily impacted by the positive sales mix, lower electronic components cost, and increased sales volumes in Europe. For the full year, the independent aftermarket gross margin increased to $23.6 million or 22% of revenue, compared to $22.6 million or 21% of revenue for 2022. Looking ahead, supportive LPG pricing continues to boost demand in Europe, which is an important area of growth for our company in the years ahead. For the last ten years, net cash used in operations have steadily and significantly improved. We've seen a substantial improvement in reduction in our cash used in operations to $13.2 million in 2023, compared to cash used in operations of $34.6 million in 2022, and $43.8 million in 2021.
We are encouraged by this trend as it shows the sustainable and meaningful improvements we've been making across the entire business over the long term. Our liquidity, our cash and cash equivalents at December 31, 2023, was $54.9 million, which was a net decrease of $31.3 million in 2023. This compared to $86.2 million in cash at the end of 2022. Cash used in operating activities was $13.2 million, and the year-over-year reduction in cash used in operating activities was facilitated by improvements in working capital. We purchased $15.6 million of fixed assets during 2023 and had $2.2 million in net debt payments.
In Q4 2023, we secured an additional $11.5 million in new term loans, and we secured an additional $3.9 million in the first quarter of 2024. As I mentioned, corporate costs were higher due to increased costs related to ongoing activities to finalize the joint venture, along with increased legal fees related to our restructuring in India and $4.5 million in severance costs. As Dan mentioned, cutting costs through 2024 is the main priority, and we've already begun taking the necessary steps in areas like headcount to make impactful reductions. Regarding our cash burn trend, we are making progress, but we still have a lot of work to do here.
Looking forward, we have multiple projects and initiatives either announced or underway that will have a positive impact on our liquidity as we continue to prioritize solidifying our balance sheet. First, the formation of our HPDI JV is almost complete and is substantial for Westport financially and HPDI commercially. To recap the arrangement, Volvo's payments for their 45%, 45% share of the joint venture includes an initial $28 million and an earn-out amount of up to $45 million, which is a clear signal of their commitment to the future growth of HPDI. That also helps shore up our balance sheet. With the investment agreement signed, closing the JV will be our next step in establishing our commitment to Volvo and our HPDI technology. Moving forward, we'll continue to be prudent in our liquidity management, and multiple steps are being taken to do so.
However, we will continue to do what is necessary to ensure we are adequately and fully capitalized. Thank you, and with that, I will turn the call back to Dan.
Dan Sceli (CEO)
Thanks, Bill. Finally, I wanted to close on a few key points. Westport is part of a compelling industry with a bright future, and we are driven to make a material impact on the decarbonization of the transport industry. The magnitude of this impact will only grow as we deliver our products to more customers. Although we made considerable progress in the second half of 2023 regarding our strategic priorities of implementing operational efficiencies, achieving cost reductions, and strengthening our balance sheet, we recognize that our work is not done. We remain committed to enhancing our core capabilities, learning and evolving as a company, and seizing new opportunities for continued growth and value creation. In the near term, we are focusing on cutting costs and optimizing operations. Nothing is off-limits.
We have already begun to identify and eliminate redundancies, and we are looking at spending throughout the organization. Additionally, better inventory management is key. These are only a few examples of the areas we are targeting to improve Westport's overall profitability. I want to take a moment to thank everyone for being here today. I'm excited to be on this call and energized by and committed to Westport's bright future. With that, I'll turn it over to the operator to open the call for your questions. Thank you.
Operator (participant)
Thank you, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, if you would like to ask a question, please press star followed by one on your touchtone phone. You will hear a three-tone prompt acknowledging your request. If you would like to withdraw from the question queue, please press Star followed by two. Your first question will be from Amit Dayal at H.C. Wainwright. Please go ahead.
Amit Dayal (Managing Director of Equity Research)
Thank you. Good morning, everyone. Dan, on all the cost-cutting initiatives, and gross margin improvement initiatives, could you give us any sense of, you know, where you might arrive at, you know, in the next 12-18 months, in terms of operating costs and gross margin levels?
Dan Sceli (CEO)
So I'm not going to get into any specific numbers. As you know, you know, I've been on the job here for a couple of months, and I'm digging in hard and getting the team circled around the wagon, so to speak, to identify and focus on areas of redundancy, of open capacity, of cost cutting. We're going through that process very aggressively, and we will be executing many of those initiatives throughout the next, you know, 6, 9, 12 months. But I can tell you that my approach is one of operational excellence. And we will be driving that through the organization to ensure that everything we do, we do professionally, very well and efficiently, and you know, the benefits will come out of that.
Amit Dayal (Managing Director of Equity Research)
Understood. With respect to inventory write-downs, is there some additional, you know, costs on that side that, you know, could be coming down the line, or are we done with, you know, whatever needed to be addressed?
Dan Sceli (CEO)
Bill, you want to take that one?
Bill Larkin (CFO)
Yeah, yeah, I'll take that one. You know, we continue to evaluate our, our inventory across all the businesses, and, you know, as of right now, you know, that's, you know, based on, you know, the assessment that we did, you know, resulted in the write-down, you know, during the quarter. You know, we'll continue to assess, you know, our inventory levels, our customer commitments going forward, and, you know, we'll continue to monitor it at this point. You know, I, I'd like to say, you know, I don't expect any future write-downs, but, you know, we are a manufacturer. We do supply, you know, components and, you know, we, you know, typically do have some level of write-downs each quarter.
Amit Dayal (Managing Director of Equity Research)
Okay. Thank you, Bill.
Bill Larkin (CFO)
But not to the extent that we had during the quarter.
Amit Dayal (Managing Director of Equity Research)
Right. Right. Understood. Just last one for me. For 1Q24, should we expect a bounce back in gross margins?
Bill Larkin (CFO)
Well, I mean, if you
Amit Dayal (Managing Director of Equity Research)
Compared to Q4.
Bill Larkin (CFO)
Well, I mean, if you exclude the write-downs, you know, that right there is going to have an improvement in our gross margins. You know, as Dan said, you know, we, you know, we're looking at, you know, reducing our cost structure across the entire company and, you know, it's, you know, over time, you know, we would expect to see, you know, improvements in our gross margin. But as of right now, you know, a lot of those improvements will, you know, be dictated by the timing of executing and implementing, you know, those, you know, those initiatives across the company.
Amit Dayal (Managing Director of Equity Research)
Okay, understood. That's all I have. I didn't have a question.
Bill Larkin (CFO)
Okay.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. Next question will be from Rob Brown at Lake Street Capital Markets. Please go ahead.
Rob Brown (Co-Founder, Partner)
Good morning.
Dan Sceli (CEO)
Good morning.
Rob Brown (Co-Founder, Partner)
Welcome, Dan.
Dan Sceli (CEO)
Thank you.
Rob Brown (Co-Founder, Partner)
As you kind of move into the Volvo JV process, could you give us a sense of sort of how the first year or so of that JV should look and ramp and what sort of your expectations coming out of that over the first 12 or 18 months?
Dan Sceli (CEO)
Sure. In the first 12 months, it's really getting the organization up and running as a standalone entity. You know, ensuring that all the business processes, the policies, procedures we need to run a standalone business are in place. The product that we're shipping today, it's the product we'll be shipping next quarter. You know, it's building the business around it with our partner and making sure that's all organized well and running. And then, of course, we're gonna continue on, you know, developing the technology and building the future for the joint venture.
Rob Brown (Co-Founder, Partner)
Okay, good. And, and then on, on China, I wanted to clarify your comments, that the China sort of activity there, you said was running a little behind schedule. You know, how do you see that playing out? And, and is there, you know, a feasibility to sort of say 25, or is it still unclear on, on how that ramps?
Dan Sceli (CEO)
Well, the changes in the Chinese regulations are having us on the product that we've been developing, having us go through some new regulatory testing and certification. You know, it hasn't changed the timeline of our development of these new hydrogen components. It just delays how fast we can put them into the market. And there's, you know, no sense having a plant sitting there empty while we're going through a certification. We're just timing the move into the plant with the certification and the production just to ensure that we're efficient in managing our costs. The timeline of our development has not changed. We're developing the hydrogen products, and those will be going to the market in China.
Rob Brown (Co-Founder, Partner)
Okay, great. Thank you. I'll turn it over.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. Next question will be from Eric Stine at Craig-Hallum. Please go ahead.
Eric Stine (Senior Research Analyst)
Good morning, everyone.
Dan Sceli (CEO)
Good morning.
Bill Larkin (CFO)
Good morning.
Eric Stine (Senior Research Analyst)
Hey, good morning. So just wanted to clarify. So with the, the JV, and I know in that first 12 months, it really is focused on, you know, how do you get it set up, how is everything working together? But just to be clear, I mean, that really shouldn't impact the volumes that you would be shipping to Volvo today. Right? As you said, Q1 will be the same model, that you have been shipping, the on and off engine components. Is that how we should think about that? And with that in mind, you know, what is your expectation for those volumes in 2024?
Dan Sceli (CEO)
Yeah, we're getting, you know, obviously, we're getting regularly informed by Volvo of the volumes they need of those components. We don't see, you know, any changes from what we're building today. And, you know, we're in fact, you know, hoping to help them move even more product, right? That's one of the goals of this joint venture. But, the volumes will not change from what we're shipping today.
Eric Stine (Senior Research Analyst)
Okay, and-
Dan Sceli (CEO)
Of course, I mean, over time, that's gonna grow.
Eric Stine (Senior Research Analyst)
Sure.
Dan Sceli (CEO)
But immediately it's, you know, it's a pretty steady state.
Eric Stine (Senior Research Analyst)
Sure. Yeah, I'm just trying to kinda get a sense here of the near term as you kind of get into that changeover. And maybe I know you called out or Bill called out lower HPDI volumes in Q4. I mean, just curious, does that have anything to do with the joint venture timing? Is that more of the model change, or how should we think about that?
Bill Larkin (CFO)
Yeah. No, that, you know, the volumes aren't driven, you know, by the JV activities. You know, our goal is to have a seamless transition, so there is no disruption in delivering components and systems to, you know, to our JV partner, you know, to our customer. And so, you know, that's what we're focusing on. You know, we will go through a transition period, but, you know, ultimately, you know, we expect, you know, one of, one of the outcomes of entering into the JV is to drive higher volumes, which, you know, for our business volumes, solves a lot of issues, you know, in terms of driving-
Eric Stine (Senior Research Analyst)
Yeah.
Bill Larkin (CFO)
Top-line growth, profitability-
Eric Stine (Senior Research Analyst)
Yeah.
Bill Larkin (CFO)
Of the overall business.
Eric Stine (Senior Research Analyst)
Yep, understood. Okay, and then lastly, just on the LPG programs, good that you started those in Q1 here. Can you just remind us? I know that it's the Euro 6 and the Euro 7. It's over the next four to five years. You called out to, I believe, EUR 255 million. Can you just give a brief reminder on how that kinda should break down, at least as your expectations are today?
Dan Sceli (CEO)
When you say breakdown, do you mean by period, by?
Eric Stine (Senior Research Analyst)
Yeah, by period. I mean, obviously starts in 2024, probably heavier in 2025. You know, just some high-level discussion of that.
Bill Larkin (CFO)
Yeah, I think we're gonna see clearly a ramp-up this year in delivering components to our OE customer. We expect that increase to continue into 2025. Then we get the, you know, and then we start, you know, seeing just slight increases from there. But we will see a big jump this year, a big jump next year, and then, you know, somewhat stabilizing beyond 2025.
Dan Sceli (CEO)
Yeah.
Eric Stine (Senior Research Analyst)
Okay.
Dan Sceli (CEO)
It's a pretty quick ramp up and into their capacity numbers, and then it'll run.
Eric Stine (Senior Research Analyst)
Okay. Thank you.
Dan Sceli (CEO)
Thanks, Eric.
Operator (participant)
Next question will be from Chris, Chris Dendrinos at RBC Capital Markets. Please go ahead.
Chris Dendrinos (VP Equity Research)
Hey, good morning. Thank you.
Dan Sceli (CEO)
Good, good morning.
Chris Dendrinos (VP Equity Research)
I wanted to go back to Amit's question here, just on the priorities and then the objectives to kind of improve that operational excellence. I guess maybe just a bigger picture question, but you know, maybe looking out 12-18 months, like, how do you envision this—how does this company look then versus today? Are there, you know, sort of big changes that we see, or is it more of like this kind of gradual progression? And just kind of want to get your perspective on what you foresee with Westport in the future. Thanks.
Dan Sceli (CEO)
Sure, sure. Over the next 12, 18 months, I mean, we're going to be instituting, you know, things like harmonized metrics across the operations to drive performance. We're going to be, you know, trying to optimize our capital, or sorry, our, our capacity utilization. We're gonna be looking at balancing overhead costs to the businesses. It's a, it's a, just a, what I call, operational excellence drive to, you know, go into every corner of our, of our operations and, you know, put in place a, a discipline that will drive performance. It takes time. It's not a, you know, next week, next month thing.
I mean, there's a lot of, there's a lot of really good things that we want to optimize and continue, and there's some things that we need to fix. And we will drive those in a manner that it can be executed without causing any issues to customers or supply. And that's kind of my approach. It's a, you know, my theory of operational excellence and driving it across the business.
Chris Dendrinos (VP Equity Research)
Got it. Okay. And then I guess following up on that, is the... Is there an opportunity to consolidate some of the, you know, I guess, the manufacturing footprints? I think you mentioned, you know, capacity utilization, and then, you know, are there leases or anything like that, that sort of, I guess, you know, maybe slow that transition? Thanks.
Dan Sceli (CEO)
Yeah. As I said, in my earlier talk, nothing is off limits. We're gonna be looking, you know, across the entire enterprise for areas to become more efficient, and consolidation is always, you know, on that list that we look around and figure out what's the best setup and footprint for the long haul, and we'll be evaluating that.
Chris Dendrinos (VP Equity Research)
Got it. Okay. And then, and maybe just, separately, as far as the, the marine opportunity goes, can you just provide a bit more color, on what is gonna be, I guess, tested and sort of where this, opportunity falls within the, the marine segment? Is it, you know, commercial applications? Is it more like a residential or retail, I guess, opportunity?
Dan Sceli (CEO)
No, no, it's yeah, it's commercial applications, and it'll follow. You know, it's diesel engines, and so it'll follow a similar path to the engine development we would do for any mobility customer. And, you know, you're taking our HPDI technology, which, you know, can be developed for various types of diesel engines. And, you know, these things take some time, obviously, working with the customer, for design, development, and then trials. So it's going to develop over the next couple of years.
Chris Dendrinos (VP Equity Research)
Got it. Thank you very much.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. The next question will be from Colin Rusch at Oppenheimer. Please go ahead.
Colin Rusch (Managing Director)
Morning, this is Lydia on for Colin. Could you speak to the non-HPDI hydrogen revenue you're currently seeing and the scope of the opportunity?
Dan Sceli (CEO)
So the light-duty business, is that what you're referring to, or the aftermarket?
Colin Rusch (Managing Director)
Light-duty business, correct.
Dan Sceli (CEO)
Light-duty business. Yeah. So the light-duty business is, you know, with Euro 6 and Euro 7 and the launch of our new business with our OEM customer, we expect this year the ramp-up of that technology into the marketplace. And it'll happen fairly quickly. And I don't have the exact numbers in front of me here of what that'll do. Maybe Bill has some exact numbers, but the growth is pretty substantial for us.
Colin Rusch (Managing Director)
Great, thank you. And then as a follow-up, as you're looking at optimizing your supply chains on the natural gas vehicles, could you give us a sense of the scope of the opportunity to drive cost reduction? And then maybe the operating leverage potential for the platform as revenue grows.
Dan Sceli (CEO)
Yeah. So on our supply chain, I mean, we're not—I'm not gonna get into any specific numbers that we're expecting to get from managing our supply chains, but it's a continual part of my overall operational excellence initiative. It includes the supply side of optimizing, you know, the logistics, the cost of the product, cost reduction efforts, those types of things. And you know, it—we take the same approach to our suppliers as we do to our own operations.
Colin Rusch (Managing Director)
Thank you.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. Next question will be from Jeff Osborne at TD Cowen. Please go ahead.
Jeff Osborne (Managing Director)
Hey, good morning. I had a couple questions on my side. I was just curious if there's any update after you've had, you know, two months on the job, but... I imagine connected with some of your leading partners on the ICE engine side. Any updates around the commercialization timeline, especially just given some of the hydrogen infrastructure projects globally have been a bit delayed relative to expectations?
Dan Sceli (CEO)
You mean beyond the Volvo joint venture? The-
Jeff Osborne (Managing Director)
Correct.
Dan Sceli (CEO)
Yeah. So we are continuing to do development across, as we talked about in the thing, in rail and marine, and of course, in the heavy truck markets. We're gonna continue to do that. We're in discussions with other OEMs, and we're gonna continue to market and push the potential gains of that technology to those OEMs.
Jeff Osborne (Managing Director)
I guess I was just trying to get at, you had some exciting announcements in sort of the October through December period. Do you anticipate those to be 2- to 3-year development contracts, and so we're really looking out to 2027 and beyond for those to come to fruition? Or what's your expectation of development cycles for some of the more recent announcements?
Dan Sceli (CEO)
Yeah, there might be. I'd have to get the specific timing for you, which we can follow up with, you know, 'cause marine, rail, and the trucking industry all have somewhat different development cycles. And of course, from that comes different development times. And, you know, as you said, I'm here two months, so I haven't got that at the top of my head of what where we are in the timing of those and what the endpoint is, but I can certainly follow up with that.
Jeff Osborne (Managing Director)
No worries. Maybe, two for Bill. You know, there's, I don't know, six days left in the quarter. Can you give us any directional comments about how Q1 is shaking out relative to Q4, both from a top line and maybe a margin perspective?
Bill Larkin (CFO)
Yeah, no, we, you know, we typically don't, you know, provide any guidance, you know, as you're aware. So, you know, we will, you know, go through our normal reporting cycle on that.
Jeff Osborne (Managing Director)
Got it. And, and then I assume the same true for 2024, but is there any comments you can make on things that you can control? I understand there's a lot in life you can't. It doesn't sound like you're willing to give OpEx because everything's under review, but you also have a moving part with the joint venture. So can you just give us a sense of, like, how much headcount, expenses would move to the JV and how we should think about, you know, minority interest, losses for that? And then maybe any comments you can on, on anticipated CapEx relative to the $15 million you spent last year and the $2 million in debt payments.
Bill Larkin (CFO)
No, and I think we've talked about this before, you know, with the closing of the JV, you know, we do not expect to be able to consolidate the financial results of the JV. However, we're gonna, you know, this process is gonna change how we're gonna report our segments going forward, I would expect. We expect we're gonna provide, you know, more transparency each of these businesses. So even though we're not gonna be able to consolidate, we don't expect to be able to consolidate the joint venture. We'll provide a fulsome disclosure, very similar to what we did with our CWI joint venture. So we'll be able—you'll be able to see, we expect to start disclosing volumes, revenues. You're gonna be able to see the margins.
Also, you know, we are, you know, evaluating our other businesses and how do we break that out and, you know, considering, you know, looking at the hydrogen business and breaking that out. So we're working through that process right now, and I would expect, you know, you know, after the JV closes, probably that subsequent quarter, you know, we'll start-- you'll start seeing that information and broken out differently as we go forward.
Jeff Osborne (Managing Director)
Got it. Thank you. Go ahead.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, as a reminder, please press star one if you have any questions. Next will be a follow-up from Eric Stine. Please go ahead.
Eric Stine (Senior Research Analyst)
Hey, everyone. Yeah, just a quick follow-up here. So more of a high-level question. I know for Volvo, and this is joint venture, you know, it's obviously the internal combustion engine, key part of their strategy going forward, differentiated products in the market. But, you know, whether it's Volvo's view or your combined view as a joint venture partner, you know, what do you envision this being as a potentially as a percentage of the overall market, as you see it developing going forward, and you've got a number of technologies that are kind of in the mix for those future volumes?
Dan Sceli (CEO)
Yeah, good question, and I think we'd have to defer to Volvo on that. They have the eyes and view of the market growth. You know, they've been announcing their priorities and their focus. The exact or specific breakout of the HPDI technology versus the alternatives, I think you'd have to ask them, and you know, we're relying on them as the experts to know that market and hopefully optimize it in regards to the joint venture.
Eric Stine (Senior Research Analyst)
All right, I guess it was worth a try, but something we'll stay tuned on. Thank you.
Operator (participant)
Yeah. Thank you. And at this time, we have no further questions. Please proceed.
Dan Sceli (CEO)
So I think that concludes the day for us. I assume Ashley will jump on and do that stuff. But thank you very much for all of the questions. And look forward to talking to you all again, and we'll keep you informed.
Bill Larkin (CFO)
Thank you.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, this does indeed conclude your conference call for today. Once again, thank you for attending, and at this time, we do ask that you please disconnect your lines.
Dan Sceli (CEO)
Thank you. Bye-bye.