DraftKings - Q2 2024

Transcript

Operator (participant)

Good day, and thank you for standing by. Welcome to DraftKings First Quarter 2024 earnings call. At this time, all participants are on a listen-only mode. After the speaker's presentation, there'll be a question-and-answer session. To ask a question during the session, you need to press star one one on your telephone. You will then hear an automated message advising your hand is raised. To withdraw your question, please press star one one again. Please be advised that this conference is being recorded. I would now turn the call over to your speaker today, Alan Ellingson of DraftKings, Chief Financial Officer. Please proceed.

Alan Ellingson (CFO)

Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us today. Certain statements we make during this call may constitute forward-looking statements that are subject to risks, uncertainties, and other factors, as discussed further in our SEC filings, that could cause our actual results to differ materially from our historical results or from our forecasts. We assume no responsibility to update forward-looking statements other than as required by law. During this call, management will also discuss certain non-GAAP financial measures that we believe may be useful in evaluating DraftKings' operating performance. These measures should not be considered in isolation or as a substitute for DraftKings' financial results prepared in accordance with GAAP.

Reconciliations of these non-GAAP measures to the most directly comparable GAAP measures are available in our earnings release and presentation, which can be found on our website and in our quarterly report on Form 10-Q, filed with the SEC. Hosting the call today, we have Jason Robins, Co-founder and Chief Executive Officer of DraftKings, who will share some opening remarks and an update on the business. Following Jason's remarks, I will provide a review of our financials. We will then open the line to questions. I will now turn the call over to Jason Robins.

Jason Robins (CEO)

Good morning, and thank you all for joining. There are five key points that I'd like to focus on during our call today. First, we are achieving strong and efficient customer acquisition. New OSB and iGaming customers increased nearly 80% year-over-year, while CAC declined more than 40% year-over-year in the second quarter, a period with no new state launches. We anticipate the healthy customer acquisition environment to continue through the back half of the year and possibly beyond, which may indicate that the U.S. online gaming opportunity could be even larger than we previously thought. Second, we believe we have a reasonable solution for high tax states, including Illinois. We plan to implement a gaming tax surcharge in the four states that have multiple sports betting operators and tax rates above 20% starting January 1, 2025.

We believe additional upside potentially exists for Adjusted EBITDA in 2025 and beyond from this gaming tax surcharge. Third, the Jackpocket integration is off to a great start. We are on track to hit the multiyear guidance for the transaction that we provided in announcement and expect the deal to generate positive Adjusted EBITDA in the fiscal year 2025. Fourth, we are excited about the future and are reiterating our expectation for $900 million-$1 billion of Adjusted EBITDA in fiscal year 2025. Finally, we said last quarter that we would provide an update on capital allocation. We are pleased to announce that our board authorized a share repurchase of up to $1 billion of our Class A common stock.

This inaugural authorization reflects our conviction in the strong trajectory of our business and our expectation that we will generate significant free cash flow in the coming years. I'd also like to emphasize that all of us at DraftKings are very excited for the start of football season. Our product is in a great position as we are continuing to differentiate ourselves by investing in new features and functionality for Sportsbook and iGaming. In Sportsbook, we recently launched in-house player prop wagers for NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, college football, college basketball, and tennis. We also broadened our progressive parlays to include spread and total wagers. In addition, we plan to integrate a Bet and Watch experience with NFL streaming. In iGaming, the DraftKings and Golden Nugget Online Gaming apps were ranked number 1 and number 2 overall in a recent third-party survey.

We are on track to double the number of new games we will release this year compared to last year, and recently improved our interface to promote game discoverability. In closing, our business fundamentals are very healthy, and we are excited about the second half of 2024 and beyond. With that, I will turn it over to Alan Ellingson.

Alan Ellingson (CFO)

Thank you, Jason. I'll hit the financial highlights, including our second quarter 2024 performance and our updated guidance. Please note that all income statement measures discussed, except for revenue, are on a non-GAAP adjusted EBITDA basis. As Jason mentioned, our business fundamentals were strong in the second quarter. We generated $1.104 billion of revenue, representing 26% year-over-year growth and $128 million of adjusted EBITDA. Importantly, customer acquisition exceeded our expectations, as new to DraftKings, OSB, and iGaming customers increased nearly 80% year-over-year. Customer retention and engagement were healthy and resulted in handle that exceeded our expectations. Handle was strong, even with fewer than anticipated NBA playoff games. Structural Sportsbook hold percent improved year-over-year, in line with our expectations, to approximately 10%.

Adjusted Gross Margin for the second quarter was 43%, primarily due to better-than-expected customer acquisition and the corresponding promotional reinvestment. Operating expenses, including sales and marketing, product and technology, and general and administrative expenses, were consistent with our expectations as we continued to balance revenue growth with operating efficiency across the organization. Moving on to our fiscal year 2024 guidance. We now expect revenue in the range of $5.05 billion-$5.25 billion, from a range of $4.8 billion-$5 billion. The updated range equates to year-over-year growth of 38%-43%.

The increase in revenue guidance is driven by strong customer acquisition, engagement, and retention trends for our existing customers, as well as the inclusion of Jackpocket and our recent launch of sportsbook in Washington, D.C. We are also revising our fiscal year 2024 Adjusted EBITDA guidance to $340 million-$420 million, from the range of $460 million-$540 million. The revision takes into account Illinois raising its sportsbook tax rate, strong new customer acquisition expectations, as well as the prior mentioned inclusion of Jackpocket in our recent sportsbook launch in Washington, D.C. For fiscal year 2024, we now expect our Adjusted Gross Margin to increase modestly. We expect sales and marketing expense to increase at a mid to high single digit rate year-over-year.

The increase is primarily due to the investments in Jackpocket brand. We continue to expect the bridge between Adjusted EBITDA and free cash flow to be approximately $100 million, based on approximately $120 million of annual capital expenditure and capitalized software development costs, as well as a modest source of cash from changes in net working capital combined with interest income. We continue to expect 2024 stock-based compensation expense to be flat to down in dollar terms on a year-over-year basis and to represent approximately 7% of revenue in fiscal year 2024. Looking ahead to fiscal year 2025, we continue to expect Adjusted EBITDA in the range of $900 million-$1 billion due to our underlying business momentum, including the benefit of higher customer acquisitions in the second half of 2024.

We believe additional upside potential exists when we apply the gaming tax surcharge in those noted high tax states that have multiple online sportsbook operators, which we are not including at this time. We expect to provide more details on our fiscal year 2025 guidance with our next earnings report in November. That concludes our remarks. We will now open the line for questions.

Operator (participant)

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, if you have a question or a comment at this time, please press star one, one on your telephone. If your question has been answered, or you wish to move yourself from the queue, please press star one, one again. We'll pause for a moment while we compile our Q&A roster. Our first question comes from David Katz with Jefferies. Your line is open.

David Katz (Managing Director)

Thank you, and good morning. I appreciate all the information. What I was really hoping to do was just talk about the surcharge for a moment, which is, you know, an interesting strategy and how you've thought about the degree to which competitors, you know, may or may not follow, and how you react, you know, under those circumstances. It, you know, just fleshing out the strategy a bit more would be really helpful.

Jason Robins (CEO)

Thank you, David. Great question. You know, I think every company has to do what's best for their own business. I think we believe this is what's best for us, and I would imagine that, you know, if that's our calculus, then others would come to the same conclusion, but we really don't know, and we'll have to see. Obviously, you know, there might be other ways, too, that you know, other ideas for how to implement something like this that might be better than what we came up with. We thought through this quite a bit, but you never know. We do have some time between now and January first to and we'll see what happens.

David Katz (Managing Director)

Right. Interesting. And as a quick follow-up, just with respect to putting the surcharge aside, if we think about, you know, the impact that we should be reflecting in our models for Illinois, you know, assuming no surcharge, any help, you know, Alan, as to how we might sort of think through, you know, that impact and include it for, you know, the future? Just a lot going on in there.

Jason Robins (CEO)

I'll answer quickly, and then Alan-

David Katz (Managing Director)

Sure.

Jason Robins (CEO)

- can add any detail.

David Katz (Managing Director)

Sure.

Jason Robins (CEO)

But, I think the best way to think about it is the overperformance that we are seeing, with, you know, customer acquisition, the launch of Washington, D.C., our expectation for Jackpocket to deliver positive EBIT next, EBITDA next year, as well as underlying trends with our existing customers and outperformance on the handle side, all should, offset, the Illinois tax increase next year. So even if we don't get any benefit from the fee, we will see, you know, still $900 million-$1 billion in adjusted EBITDA next year.

David Katz (Managing Director)

Yeah. Okay. Okay, thank you very much.

Operator (participant)

One moment before our next question. Our next question comes from Shaun Kelley with BofA. Your line is open.

Shaun Kelley (Managing Director)

Hi, good morning, everyone. Jason or Alan, I think a lot of the rest of the subject of the sort of update here is about the increased customer acquisition environment, obviously, some of the continued investments you're making. So, you know, the impact here seems to be the net is obviously higher revenue expectations and lower profit flow throughs. Specifically asking about kind of 2025 to start, just the implied, you know, the implied guidance right now implies some re-acceleration. You haven't, I don't think you've given explicit revenue guides, but that seems to be kind of the undertone here. So what in your mind would kind of cause the environment to, you know, change from where we're at today?

If it doesn't, what would some of the offsets potentially be for DraftKings as we kind of move into next year, and let's say, the customer acquisition environment remains rich, and you continue to see strong ads there? Thanks.

Jason Robins (CEO)

Yeah, it's a great question. You know, just to explain a little bit about what's going on. One, even if we didn't spend another dime of marketing, new customers get new customer promotions, so you're right, that adds a drag on revenue and EBITDA. And we're seeing enough outperformance on the revenue side elsewhere that while it certainly hit the bottom line a little bit or will for the remainder of the year, it didn't actually... We're still seeing improved revenue. So, you know, that just kind of demonstrates, I think, the underlying strengths of the business and the customers that we're seeing. So,...

You know, when you kind of put all that together, next year, we do expect to get a little bit more revenue because we'll need that to offset, or in order to make the math work that's needed to offset the Illinois gaming tax increase. So, that's kind of how you get to the $900 million-$1 billion, and then any additional upside beyond that, Illinois gaming tax amount would, would be either revenue-driven or from the impact of the fee that we're instituting in those four states. And then as far as the potential for higher customer acquisition next year, that can always happen. You know, right now, we, we feel we've built in, you know, some degree of the increased trends we're seeing, and obviously, a lot of that will depend on if there's more state launches and things like that.

So, you know, I think you could sort of think of this as a same state basis type of thing again, and obviously, if there's more state launches next year and more customer acquisition investment, then that might change things a bit. But, you know, that just means bigger numbers longer term, over the following years. So, I think that's the right way to think about it. But as of today, I see no reason to think that on a same state basis, we wouldn't be able to deliver $900 million-$1 billion in Adjusted EBITDA next year.

Shaun Kelley (Managing Director)

Thank you.

Operator (participant)

One moment for our next question. Our next question comes from Stephen Grambling with Morgan Stanley. Your line is open.

Stephen Grambling (Analyst)

Hi, thanks. Just want to maybe follow up on Shaun's question, but ask it in a different way. Are you seeing any change in the cost to sustain and engage existing players? And also on the new customer acquisition, is that primarily coming from new states, or are you still seeing even greater uptick from existing states?

Jason Robins (CEO)

So we are not seeing an increase in the existing player cost. It's all new player-driven and mix-driven, so meaning mix of new players to existing. And interestingly, it really is across the board. So, certainly we got some boost from North Carolina having launched in late Q1, but if you remember last year, we had two big states, Ohio and Massachusetts, launch in Q1. You know, so this year there were less new state launches around this timeframe and none in Q2. We did have D.C. launch recently, but that didn't affect the Q2 numbers. That was in July. So really, it has to come from existing states if you look at it that way. And then, you know, it's really across products, too.

We did see some, you know, particular strength in the Golden Nugget brand as we migrated onto the DraftKings platform and product. We definitely saw a boost in conversion and, and got some lift on there, but really, it's been across states, across products.

Stephen Grambling (Analyst)

Thank you.

Operator (participant)

One moment for our next question. Our next question comes from Joe Greff with J.P. Morgan. Your line is open.

Joe Greff (Managing Director)

Good morning, everybody. Jason, just wanted to ask on the higher new user acquisition cost plans in the second half of this year. How much of this is offense, meaning to grow the new user base versus defense, versus impacting the competition? And then my follow-up to that is, you mentioned that presently, the customer acquisition environment's healthy. What if that environment changes to the downside? How do you react? How do you pivot?

Jason Robins (CEO)

Yeah, great questions. I mean, we, I think, have been very consistent in that we don't react competitively. We make decisions based on our three-year payback rule and what our data says our customer acquisition spend is returning. So, you know, as we noted, we had an over 80% increase, an almost 80% increase in new players in Q2 year-over-year and an over 40% CAC decline. I mean, those are just massive numbers, right? So when you're me looking at those numbers, and your marketing team is coming to you and saying, "We can deliver more productive spend with, you know, the same type of results," you know, it's hard to say no to that, right? And we've been monitoring cohort quality closely. I mean, everything looks really, really solid.

So I think it's just a particularly strong environment right now. The market is growing quickly. You know, I think it's just really, you got to fish when the fish are biting, so to speak. So I think that's the way to think about it. It's absolutely offensive and really, you know, more so just kind of following the data. But by the same token, to your second question, if it goes the other way, we'll follow it back the other way. So you know, the good news for us is the vast majority of our marketing spend is flexible. We can move in and out of it very quickly. A lot of it's digital. Even the TV, we can move out of in a matter of days, usually.

So, really, it's quite easy for us to make adjustments as we see what's working and at what levels. And, you know, same way that when the data is telling us we should be investing deeper because the paybacks are really strong. If we start to see the opposite or if we start to see a decline in cohort quality, we can easily adjust there.

Joe Greff (Managing Director)

Great. And Alan, wouldn't you start becoming a cash taxpayer with the corporate tax cash corporate tax rate in 2026?

Alan Ellingson (CFO)

We'll probably start paying a minimal amount of cash taxes in 2025 and 2026, but we don't, we don't expect to run through all of our NOLs until 2027 or 2028 at the soonest.

Joe Greff (Managing Director)

Thanks, guys.

Operator (participant)

One moment for our next question. Our next question comes from Clark Lampen with BTIG. Your line is open.

Clark Lampen (Managing Director)

Good morning, everyone. Thanks for taking the question.

Jason Robins (CEO)

Morning.

Clark Lampen (Managing Director)

Jason, I want to come back to the sort of customer acquisition topic and the comments you made around existing state performance. I'm curious, I guess, in absence of obvious changes, I guess from last quarter to this one, you know, from like a launch dynamic standpoint, what's creating, I guess, this sort of more favorable environment that you're leaning into? You know, is it sort of more of a push factor, where CapEx have come down enough where it makes sense to spend more, and you can actually reach customer cohorts that you weren't previously addressing, or is something sort of kicked up in terms of interest that suggests the TAM, you know, maybe really is expanding at a faster pace than we expected right now?

Jason Robins (CEO)

Yeah, it's a great question, and, you know, hard to exactly pinpoint, but I think it's a combination of both the things that you said primarily. So one, as we've, you know, increased our state footprint, we've talked about this for years now, how this is kind of the gift that keeps on giving. We see the same, you know, cost from a national marketing perspective, regardless of how many states we're operating in. But the bigger your footprint, the more bang for your buck you're getting for it. So as we've grown our state footprint, you're absolutely right. It just continues to improve our efficiency, which allows us to unlock the ability to, you know, reach a little bit deeper and spend a little bit more in pockets that weren't meeting our payback thresholds previously.

Secondly, I do think that there's just a ton of momentum in the industry right now. You know, lots of buzz coming up with NFL season. It's only going to get bigger because this is the most busy time of year for us, typically from a customer acquisition perspective, I guess, the Super Bowl, but the whole NFL, kind of NBA, you know, that whole fall timeframe is usually the biggest overall period. And, you know, really, I see no reason to think that that's going to slow down. Obviously, as noted earlier, we're going to be very closely monitoring the data, and if we see any changes, we'll adjust our spend and adjust our approach. But right now, I think if anything, you'd expect it to build because we're in really the least busy time of year, and, and we're still seeing very strong customer acquisition.

I don't know why that would slow down going into the busiest time of year.

Clark Lampen (Managing Director)

Understood. I have a follow-up also for Alan, I guess, on the repurchase that was announced today. Alan, you guys just wrote a fairly large check for Jackpocket. There have been some rumors, you know, of other sort of smaller scale deals. Football season last year was a pretty good reminder of result swings and the potential for sort of inter-quarter outflows. Is it fair to think that, I guess, utilization of that buyback authorization might be more of a 2025 event? And, you know, if so, is this something that's going to be more formulaic in nature, or would you hope to be a little bit more tactical and take advantage of bigger dislocations, I guess, in the stock price? Thank you.

Alan Ellingson (CFO)

I think we anticipate being able to buy back the $1 billion of Class A shares over the next 2-3 years. We would like to be, ideally, be formulaic with it, create some consistency, but I do expect it to take more than just the next little while to get fully finalized.

Jason Robins (CEO)

Yeah, and it'll be a mix. I mean, we'll have certainly some flexibility, as you noted, to take advantage of any dislocations in the share price. But, as Alan noted, I think the bulk of it will be formulaic.

Clark Lampen (Managing Director)

Thank you.

Operator (participant)

One moment for our next question. Our next question comes from Robert Fishman with MoffettNathanson. Your line is open.

Robert Fishman (Senior Research Analyst)

Hi, good morning. Curious, are you guys seeing any signs of consumer weakness in your, some of your older states, maybe? And how would you think about the impact on OSB and iGaming if we see any more macro headwinds in the next couple of quarters? And then shifting gears a little bit, given the expected integration of, of the Bet and Watch experience with the NFL streaming, curious, did you see anything last year? Some of your competitors did, I think, have this functionality. So anything that you learned last year about the NFL season that, that pushed you into this product enhancement, and any early thoughts about exploring these rights for the NBA? Thank you.

Jason Robins (CEO)

Yeah, I think, you know, in your first question, we're seeing absolutely no signs of any weakness in the consumer whatsoever. Hard to know how much of that is unique to our industry versus macro, but really, on our end, we're seeing super strong, healthy cohort behavior across the board. And as noted, customer acquisition is really at an all-time high as well. So everything looks really good on that front for us. On the Bet and Watch side, you know, it wasn't really that we saw anything last year and anything our competitors did. It was more that we wanted to do this all along. It's a great thing that we think will add a lot of value to our customers doing live betting. Just didn't make the cut.

We had so many other great things that we were trying to get done last year. And I think to do it, you know, in a sort of haphazard way wasn't our style. We want to do it right, so we really wanted to make sure it wasn't just, you know, some kind of, you know, hacked together integration of a video feed, but it was a true experience that we were creating because, you know, if somebody tries it, we want them to say, "This is great," and come back, and you only get one shot at a first impression. So I think we felt like between the other things that we had on our roadmap and our desire to make sure we did this in the right way, we decided it would be better off for this coming season.

Operator (participant)

Thank you. One moment for our next question. Our next question comes from Ben Miller with Goldman Sachs. Your line is open.

Ben Miller (Analyst)

Thanks for taking the question. I guess just back on the gaming tax surcharge, can you just talk about the thought process behind using a surcharge as the mitigation measure as opposed to a more discrete lever? And then are there any insights, you can share around customer behavior from any A/B testing that you might have done in advance of announcing this? Thanks.

Jason Robins (CEO)

Sure. So, you know, definitely discussed and thought through a lot of different ways of doing it. And as I said, you know, if some better idea comes along, we're open to it. I think the important thing is that, you know, if you look at sort of the way it's typically done in other industries, whether it be hotel taxes or even the sales tax that you pay when you buy something at the store, taxis, you know, you name it, it's typically line-itemed out separately, and, you know, usually a hundred percent passed along to the consumer. In this case, we're obviously subsidizing a chunk of it.

So, you know, we just thought that was most sort of in line with how it's typically done versus trying to obfuscate it, which also isn't consistent with our commitment to be transparent to our customers and be very customer-friendly in everything we do. So, you know, I know there's maybe benefit to hiding it because maybe people don't notice, but I think over the long term, customers appreciate transparency, and even if they don't love that, you know, their state implemented a high tax and some of that is being passed along, I think they prefer that to not knowing if it were buried in the pricing or something else.

Ben Miller (Analyst)

Was there any A/B testing that you guys done, that you know you could share any customer behavior from that?

Jason Robins (CEO)

No, we haven't. We actually still, there's work to do to implement it. And, you know, I think it's hard to A/B test something like that. What we are doing is we're launching in 4 states, so we'll certainly see the impact there. And obviously, you know, it won't be a perfect A/B test, but, I think that we have enough comparable data from other states and enough of an understanding of what we would expect from consumer behavior, that I think we'll have a pretty clean read on the impact. But, you know, it is a nominal amount. If you look at the materials we provided in the investor presentation, you know, for Illinois, for example, if you made a $10 bet to win $20, it would be a 37-ish, 30-something cent, I forget the exact number, charge.

So obviously, some people might just react negatively to the idea of being charged at all, but it's really fairly nominal, and it makes a huge difference in our ability to make, you know, a reasonable margin, and also, more importantly, to compete with the illegal market, which pays no taxes and has, you know, the ability to invest 100% of their revenue into product and other things. So, you know, for us to be able to be competitive with the illegal market and invest properly in product and customer experience in a state that has a very high tax rate, we feel is an important step that consumers will ultimately understand, and, and if they feel the product and experience is better, then they'd rather pay for that than somewhere else that maybe doesn't have as strong a product.

Ben Miller (Analyst)

Great. Thanks so much.

Operator (participant)

One moment before our next question. Our next question comes from Robin Farley with UBS. Your line is open.

Robin Farley (Managing Director)

Thanks. Yeah, I wanted to ask, when you think about strategy in Latin America, is that something you would pursue sort of organically or something that you might look to use M&A to get a stake in that market? And then just a quick follow-up question on the earlier commentary about the increased acquisition, customer acquisition. Your market share looked pretty consistent year-over-year. I guess, how should we think about what's the time lag between the higher customer acquisition and that showing up in the market share numbers? Thank you.

Jason Robins (CEO)

So a couple things. One, answer your question on Latin America. We would probably not do it organically. If we were to pursue, it would be through M&A. That said, we don't currently have any plans to do that either. I think we're really focused, as we've noted in the past, on winning the U.S. online gaming opportunity. In fact, just in the last couple of months, we divested VSiN, we shuttered Reignmakers. So, I mean, we're more focused than ever on our core, and I think that's just been a mantra and a theme throughout the company is focus, focus, focus. So definitely want to make that point. But were we to do something, I think it would likely be through M&A for that very reason.

We don't want to take a big chunk of our brain trust here and distract them with something like that. And then, I'm sorry. Oh, second question on share. So, you know, hard to know exactly, 'cause, you know, I would assume that if we're seeing robust customer acquisition, then our competitors are as well. So, I don't know if that's unique to us. If it were unique to us, it should show up pretty quickly, you know, within a quarter or two of acquiring the customers. But, you know, I think the caveat is, my guess is that the entire market, the entire industry, is experiencing very strong customer acquisition right now because, you know...

Well, I guess there could be some things, like in the case of the Golden Nugget migration, that we're getting a little bit of an extra boost from. But for the most part, we're seeing it across states, across products, so I think it's more of a macro industry trend as much as anything else.

Robin Farley (Managing Director)

Okay, great. Thank you very much.

Operator (participant)

One moment before our next question. Our next question comes from Dan Politzer with Wells Fargo. Your line is open.

Dan Politzer (Executive Director)

Hey, good morning, everyone. First one, in terms of that stronger customer acquisition, retention, and engagement, if I just look at your slide deck, in it, it's, you know, a positive revenue of about $177 million, but a drag in terms of EBITDA. But, you know, that compares with your first quarter, where it was, both of those figures were positive, right? They would add incremental adjusted EBITDA. So I guess the question is: Is there any way to kind of break out this, you know, the $23 million EBITDA loss or as part of your bridge as it relates to better monetization of existing customers versus maybe the drag of acquiring new customers?

Jason Robins (CEO)

Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I think that the best way to think about it is if you assume that the incremental revenue from existing customers flows through somewhere in the 50%-ish range, maybe a little bit higher, but somewhere around there, then you can kind of back into what comes from each.

Dan Politzer (Executive Director)

Got it, and then-

Jason Robins (CEO)

The other thing I'd note, too, and I just want to make sure people understand this as well, because I think it's an important point. When you know we talk about you know revising EBITDA guidance and incremental customer acquisition costs, even if we didn't spend any more money on marketing, new customer promos come from just more customers coming in. So if we underforecasted, which in this case we did, the number of new customers that we expect to acquire this year, then even if we spent $0 more dollars on advertising, on marketing, we would still see a headwind, which is you know in that line you're mentioning from new customer promos, because just more people signing up means more new customer promos. So that's a good thing, it's not a bad thing.

Obviously, it creates more profit over the long term. But, you know, it's something that really is not within our control, and I think a good, you know, long-term element of what we believe is a large and growing TAM. But in the end, you know, unless we took away new customer offers, which we would never do, that's something that we can't really control.

Dan Politzer (Executive Director)

Got it. And then just quickly for my follow-up on the surcharge. In those states that you're gonna implement that, are there additional steps that you're gonna implement as well, such as marketing reductions or, you know, any other levers you can pull in Illinois, New York, Pennsylvania, to maybe offset some of the higher taxes?

Jason Robins (CEO)

Yeah, you know, I think part of the idea is to do this in place of that, so we can continue to invest in the state. I think New York's a great example where everyone, you know, all companies have, including DraftKings, have pulled back heavily on promotions and in-state marketing investment.

And, you know, I think that's fine, that's one way of doing it, but another way is to say, "Look, I'm gonna adjust so that, you know, we're effectively at a 20% tax rate, which is, you know, in line with a lot of other states, and I'm gonna invest at the level that I would invest in a 20% tax rate state." You know, we'll have to see which one works better, but my guess is that that's going to work better because it allows us to make the investments in product and promotions and marketing, and all the other things that should continue to create long-term growth.

Dan Politzer (Executive Director)

Thanks so much for all the detail.

Operator (participant)

One moment for our next question. Our next question comes from Joseph Stauff with SIG. Your line is open.

Joseph Stauff (Analyst)

Okay. Thanks. Good morning, Jason and Alan. Two questions, please. I wanted to see if you could, Jason, sort of describe, say, the iCasino first opportunity at this point. You know, you have GNOG fully ramped up and launched, and, you know, in particular, was it a material contributor to your MUP growth? And then the second piece is, just wanted to ask about, say, the economics of customer acquisition in existing states. You know, we're aware, obviously, of that initial golden cohort, but just wondering how and what you've seen in terms of the economics and the LTVs for all the cohorts after that, whether it be year two versus year three, and so forth. I guess the main question is, like, in year two and year three, based on what you can observe, are the economics very different between them?

One would think over time it'd be lower, but I was just wondering what you're observing.

Jason Robins (CEO)

Yeah, it's great, great question. So starting off, you know, as we noted, we're seeing customer acquisition outperform really across the board, really, states and products alike. That said, GNOG has been a bright spot ever since we migrated onto the DraftKings product and platform, which is a much more, you know, positive customer experience, better conversion flows, all those sorts of things. We have definitely seen GNOG spike. So that was a material contributor for sure. It's still relatively small compared to DraftKings, but we're very excited about the potential for that brand and the growth that we're going to see there. So more to come there, but definitely an important contributor to the outperformance on customer acquisition. And then, you know, the cohort question, we've noted this in the past as well.

For sure, as time goes on, you see some decline in cohort quality. You know, it's a thing that we look at every single day, and it's not just a matter of time. Obviously, time is one factor, but you also see different LTVs based on what sport you acquire a player on, or whether a player gets acquired onto iGaming versus onto OSB first. There's a number of different factors that we have noted that definitely drive differential LTVs. Obviously, the state that they're acquired and play in, based on tax rates and other elements, like whether there's iGaming. So lots of complex variables that go into how we look at LTV.

But certainly one of them is that, you know, there is an underlying quality of the player that declines as time goes on, because, of course, you're gonna get your strongest players in the first year or two of a state launch. So that is something that we factor in. We closely monitor it. It tends to asymptote out after a little bit of time, so it's not like it just perpetually declines. Usually, you know, you kind of get that first year or two, depending on the state, where you get the strongest players, and then it kind of flattens out. But, you know, no doubt, players you're getting a few years in are weaker than the players you get day one.

Joseph Stauff (Analyst)

Thank you.

Operator (participant)

One moment for our next question. Our next question comes from Carlo Santarelli with DB. Your line is open.

Carlo Santarelli (Managing Director)

Hey, everybody. Good, good morning.

Jason Robins (CEO)

Morning.

Carlo Santarelli (Managing Director)

First off, I just wanted to clarify something as it pertains to the 80%. The 80% growth in customers, does that include the Jackpocket customer base?

Jason Robins (CEO)

No. That's just new customers onto the DraftKings brand, oh, and GNOG as well.

Carlo Santarelli (Managing Director)

Okay. And GNOG and Draft okay, that's helpful. And then secondly, just, just to follow up, Jason, on, on your response to, I believe it was Dan's question, around the, the $177 million of net revenue and the 20... And I know you said 50% flow-through on the existing customers.

Is it fair to more or less estimate that the existing customers are likely generating, you know, call it more than $177 million of incremental net revenue, as the new customers would carry kind of negative net revenue through the rest of this year, through the payback period, and hence, the math is kind of like $200 million-$300 million from new customers, and then looked at the other way, you take the 50% flow-through for the EBITDA and look at what the delta is on the, on the acquired customers. Is that accurate?

Jason Robins (CEO)

That's close. So new customers that we acquired, say, in Q2, will definitely generate positive revenue by the end of the year. But, you know, their new customer promo will also be a significant chunk of the play. About three or four months after a customer's acquired that they start. So, depending on the timing, many of them would be negative this year, but some would get positive.

So, you know, it's a little bit complicated to think about, but the best way that I would think about it is, you know, separate out, instead of thinking of it as a customer level, think of it as we're spending X more promo dollars because of new customers, and those promo dollars are gonna flow through somewhere, you know, around 90%, to the bottom line, and that's how you combat. And then the rest of the revenue, the positive revenue, flows through in the 50s, and that's how you can back into it.

Carlo Santarelli (Managing Director)

Got it. Okay, that makes sense. Thank you.

Operator (participant)

One moment before our next question. Our next question comes from Bernie McTernan with Needham & Company. Your line is open.

Bernie McTernan (Senior Analyst)

Great. Good morning. Thanks for taking the questions. Maybe just to start, sticking on the EBITDA bridge for 2025, or moving over to 2025. How much of the stronger customer acquisition, retention, engagement, that line that's offsetting the Illinois, how much of that is really truly existing customers versus customers that you've acquired this year?

Jason Robins (CEO)

Sorry, say it one more time?

Bernie McTernan (Senior Analyst)

Yeah, in the EBITDA bridge, so Illinois is a big negative, and then the big offset is the customer retention engagement line. So I want to know how much of that is driven by truly existing customers that you acquired before this year and better, you know, outperformance there, versus the customers that you have been and expect to acquire this year.

Jason Robins (CEO)

This is 2025, right? You talking about-

Bernie McTernan (Senior Analyst)

Yeah, for the. Exactly.

Jason Robins (CEO)

Okay. Yeah. I don't know proportionally how it breaks out. Do you know the answer to that?

Alan Ellingson (CFO)

We won't break it out for this call, but disproportionate amount of it is the existing customers. New customers tend to ramp up over time. So you can assume that it's a little bit heavier on the existing customers and the performance on the retention and the engagement of our existing customers, and less on the new customers, which we're still exploring the value of.

Bernie McTernan (Senior Analyst)

Okay, perfect. And then, just given the focus on higher tax rate states, is the contribution profit margin significantly different in those high tax rate states versus the lower ones?

Jason Robins (CEO)

Well, pre-instituting the fee, it definitely the contribution margin is different because even with reduced promo and marketing, you still can't. I mean, it depends on the state, right? I guess New York's probably the one I'm thinking of when I'm answering your question. 51% tax on gross revenue is just, you can't overcome it to a point where it's gonna be in line with the other states, margin-wise. You know, obviously, it depends on the state. In some states that are, you know, closer to that 20%, we can claw back most of it through promo and reduced advertising.

Bernie McTernan (Senior Analyst)

Okay. Thanks, Jason. Thanks, Alan.

Operator (participant)

One moment for our next question. Our next question comes from Jed Kelly with Oppenheimer. Your line is open.

Jed Kelly (Managing Director)

Hey, great. Thanks for taking my question. Just, just circling back on the surcharge, maybe a different way to ask it: What would cause you not to potentially implement it? And then just real quickly on hold, you know, some of the hold trends are obviously different, but have you seen any change in how you view your structural hold or, you know, your parlay mix, or are you changing like, hey, you know, it's more important to drive engagement than to maximize hold? Thanks.

Jason Robins (CEO)

Yeah, great question. So, you know, as of now, I don't think there would be any reason that we wouldn't implement it, but obviously, we're paying close attention to customer feedback, and, you know, if we hear anything that makes us change our mind, we'll certainly let you know. I think on the hold side, we continue to focus very much there. I think it's, you know, largely still a bet mix thing. Certainly, we feel like there's a ton of room to increase our parlay mix and increase our average leg count still. So the team is very focused on that. I think we're also focusing, though, on other parts of the betting, you know, platform as well, such as live betting.

So, it's a little bit more balanced probably than I think maybe last year, where it was just all about hold rate and bet mix, but we're still very focused on bet mix.

Jed Kelly (Managing Director)

Just real quick, anything to call out on shutting down Reignmakers in terms of even a drag or headwind? Thanks.

Jason Robins (CEO)

Yeah, Reignmakers is fairly immaterial, so I wouldn't, you know, factor it in in any way. I think for us, it's really just about eliminating a distraction and potential risk. And, you know, as I said earlier, I think the mantra around the company has been focus, focus, focus. Let's go win the U.S. online gaming opportunity and maximize the amount of profit we're driving in that space, and I think that's what we're focusing on right now.

Jed Kelly (Managing Director)

Thank you.

Operator (participant)

Again, ladies and gentlemen, just as a friendly reminder, we ask that you keep yourself to one question. One moment for our next question. Our next question comes from Barry Jonas with Truist Securities. Your line is open.

Barry Jonas (Securities.-Managing Director and Senior Gaming Equity Analyst)

Hey, guys. We've seen a number of states starting to react to the offshore market by banning Bovada. Do you see these actions as meaningful to combat the illegal market?

Jason Robins (CEO)

... Oh, I think so. I mean, you know, right now, the illegal market, particularly in the iGaming space, ironically, is bigger than ever. I think consumers don't know oftentimes what's legal and what's not. They don't know if it's legal in their state. And, you know, there's just zero controls put on these companies that make sure that they're not marketing to minors and other sorts of things. So I do think it's a big issue, and it's good to see the regulators starting to focus on it. And, you know, the thing is that, there's so much pent-up demand, and there's so many people that would prefer to bet in the legal market, that I think you're seeing growth despite the fact that there's still a rampant illegal market.

But for sure, a lot of the current TAM is still tied up there. And, you know, both for the long-term health of the industry as well as for, you know, making sure that states are maximizing their revenues and their purpose for doing this, which is to regulate and protect consumers. I think it's absolutely essential that that continues to be a focus. So I'm happy to see it, and hopefully, we'll see more of it.

Barry Jonas (Securities.-Managing Director and Senior Gaming Equity Analyst)

Great. Thank you.

Operator (participant)

One moment before our next question. Our next question comes from Vince Ciepiel with Mizuho. Your line is open.

Vince Ciepiel (Analyst)

Hey, thanks for taking my question. Two very quick product questions. I guess, on integrating, I would imagine integrating Jackpocket into the DraftKings app would be another significant customer acquisition opportunity. I guess, one, do you agree? And two, if so, any color on timing? And then on the Bet and Watch integration, will that require users to have access to the games themselves, or will you have an opportunity to kinda tactically subsidize that in any way? Thanks.

Jason Robins (CEO)

I think the Bet and Watch is just included, so... Is that correct? It's not. Yeah, there's no additional charge for it, so it's a, it's a feature that customers will have just by being a, a part of the DraftKings user base. And then... Sorry, what was the first question?

Vince Ciepiel (Analyst)

Jackpocket.

Jason Robins (CEO)

Oh, Jackpocket. Yes. So we do plan on integrating those products into DraftKings, as well as integrating DraftKings Casino and OSB products into Jackpocket. You know, timing, we haven't quite determined yet. You know, I think in the past, what we've said, and you know, I kinda echo, is we long term want to have all of our products available to all of our brands. And exactly when we implement those things directly versus when we have more linkage through brand-to-brand cross-sell, you know, will depend on other priorities and how that slots into our product roadmap, but we definitely do plan to do that at some point.

Vince Ciepiel (Analyst)

I guess, just as a very quick follow-up, would you agree that integrating it would be a significant kind of customer acquisition catalyst for other portions of the business? Or do you think you've already acquired those customers? Does that make sense?

Jason Robins (CEO)

No, we definitely haven't acquired all those customers, so I agree it would be, and that's, that's the reason we're planning to do it. I also think that in the interim, we continue to see, you know, Jackpocket as a great vehicle for acquiring those customers and cross-selling them into DraftKings. But we know from experience that having a fully integrated product is always going to yield stronger conversion and stronger cross-sell. So no doubt, you're correct that that will be a boost.

Vince Ciepiel (Analyst)

Thanks.

Operator (participant)

One moment before our next question. Our next question comes from Brent Montour with Barclays. Your line is open.

Brandt Montour (Analyst)

Hi, good morning, everybody. Thanks for taking my question. So one more on the surcharge. Just thinking through the potential outcomes of that plan, especially if nobody follows suit. You know, we would think that it would affect the larger players, the VIPs, more. And at the same time, you know, you're accelerating your customer acquisition and penetrating more customers in your existing states. Is there a thought that this would potentially move you more to a recreational mix? And could that actually help hold longer term?

Jason Robins (CEO)

Yeah, it's a great question. You know, certainly, I think that players betting multi-leg parlays and things like that are going to be less sensitive because, you know, the payout is already very large, so I get that. I hadn't really thought about how it might affect—I mean, we're hopeful that our product and the investment we're making in our customer experience is strong enough that we get players across the spectrum, and they view us as being worth maybe paying a few extra cents on a bet. But certainly, we'll have to see how that plays out. And, you know, it'll be something just like everything, where we look at the data, and we decide what we do accordingly.

I do think that if you run the math, it would take quite a bit of top-line deterioration to make it not worthwhile from a bottom-line perspective. So, I'm optimistic, but, you know, we'll have to see, and we'll have to follow whatever the data and analytics tell us to do.

Brandt Montour (Analyst)

Oh, great. Thanks for that, Jason. And then just to follow up on Jackpocket, just piecing together some of your comments. You're investing more in marketing this year in Jackpocket. The integration sounds like a little bit more longer term. So what gives you confidence that you're going to inflect positive in your '25 guide, in that you laid out in your deck? Yeah, just trying to understand some of the drivers there.

Jason Robins (CEO)

Well, really, it's the revenue growth we're seeing right now on Jackpocket that gives us confidence we'll be able to achieve adjusted positive EBITDA in 2025. So, they've been, you know, really doing well from that standpoint. Also, as a reminder, they have an extremely low CAC. So, while we are investing more in, we get a lot of customers for that. So, you know, definitely makes a big difference in their revenue ramp as well. So, you know, I think all signs point towards them being a positive contributor to adjusted EBITDA in 2025 and beyond. But, obviously, we'll have to see how the back half of the year plays out, and we'll have more of an update on that in November.

Brandt Montour (Analyst)

Great. Thanks, everyone.

Operator (participant)

One moment before our next question. Our next question comes from Jordan Bender with Citizens JMP. Your line is open.

Jordan Bender (Senior Equity Research Analyst)

Hey, Jordan. Thanks for taking my questions. I want to talk on your market access agreements. There, there's obviously not much room to move in some states, like in New York and Oregon, but has the supply-demand dynamic changed to the point that states with unused skins can maybe act as a renegotiation tool and be a serious lever to drive cost savings over the long term? Thank you.

Jason Robins (CEO)

You know, I think there's probably some room there. Most states, we feel we have pretty good deals in already. So, I don't think there's a ton where we feel there's a lot of optimization, but I think there's probably some optimization. And, you know, it'll be a little bit longer term, because most of the deals we struck are, you know, very long-term deals, so, like 7-10-year deals. But, I do think as they start to come up, there will be states that have a lot of open skins, and, just like anything, it's a supply-demand thing. And I think also, even though we got great rates, many of the early states, you know, were before I think we really established the level of, you know, place in the industry that we have.

I think that'll hopefully, hopefully help a little bit, too.

Jordan Bender (Senior Equity Research Analyst)

Thank you very much.

Operator (participant)

One moment for our next question. Our next question comes from Ryan Sigdahl with Craig-Hallum Capital Group. Your line is open.

Ryan Sigdahl (Analyst)

Hey, good morning, guys.

Jason Robins (CEO)

Good morning.

Ryan Sigdahl (Analyst)

Looking at slide 10, the MUP increased sequentially, normally kind of flattish quarter, given seasonality, up almost a million. Are you able to break out how much of that was Jackpocket versus just organic DraftKings and Golden Nugget acquisition?

Jason Robins (CEO)

It was mostly Jackpocket. Obviously, the new customer acquisition boosted it, too, but, given the substantial size of their database, it was mostly Jackpocket. No?

Ryan Sigdahl (Analyst)

No.

Jason Robins (CEO)

Oh, I'm sorry. It was not, I got that wrong?

Ryan Sigdahl (Analyst)

No, it was about half.

Jason Robins (CEO)

Half and half. Okay, I stand corrected. Thankfully, I have people with better data than I have in my brain, apparently, next to me. So it's about half and half.

Ryan Sigdahl (Analyst)

Thank you. Good luck, guys.

Operator (participant)

One moment for our next question. Our next question comes from Michael Graham with Canaccord Genuity. Your line is open.

Michael Graham (Analyst)

Thank you. Jason, I just wanted to ask about your thoughts on the product and the platform as we head into the NFL season. You know, obviously, you don't have the tremendous, like, upside from introducing same-game parlays that you had, but you have the Bet and Watch feature. But just wanted to kind of hear any comments you're willing to share on how you think the product will perform, you know, in this important seasonal period here coming up.

Jason Robins (CEO)

Yeah, I think, I feel really excited about the product we have going into NFL. A lot of the work we've been doing over the last several months has been more back-end performance stuff, so things that maybe aren't as immediately obvious because they don't show up like front-end features, but things like, making sure that pages load faster, making sure that the app crashes less, making sure markets are up for longer, and we have less time where markets are locked or unavailable, adding new bet types, bringing in-house our, you know, pricing and trading for many new sports, and also launching things like cash out for same-game parlay. So we have a lot of really exciting new stuff. We expanded progressive parlays to include new types of bets as well. So, you know, and more to come.

Obviously, Bet and Watch hasn't launched yet, and we have a number of other features that we haven't announced that we have planned for the coming months. A lot of what we do, really all of what we do, revolves around a calendar, you know, starting in the fall. So, the team thinks about it as, what do we wanna ship in the August-September timeframe? And how do we then, you know, starting at the beginning of the year, orient our entire product roadmap and calendar around that? So, a lot of the product that we ship is going to be done over the next 3-6 weeks, and I think you'll see a lot of new stuff pop up as the season approaches.

Michael Graham (Analyst)

All right. That's exciting. Thank you.

Operator (participant)

One moment for our next question. Our next question comes from Chad Beynon of Macquarie. Your line is open.

Chad Beynon (Managing Director and Senior Analyst)

Morning. Thanks for taking my question. Jason, I wanted to ask about, I guess, the temperature of some of the tribal news that's been out there. Obviously, a big decision that we learned a few months ago in Florida. Does this change the landscape of other tribal states in terms of what you believe they could offer, and then, more importantly, your ability to partner with these companies? Could that, you know, accelerate some of the TAM if they decide to move forward on digital? Thanks.

Jason Robins (CEO)

Yeah, you know, I do think that there is some momentum in tribal communities now, and obviously, you know, DraftKings already has a number of partners that are tribes in various states, you know, including Foxwoods, the Pequot tribe in Connecticut, Passamaquoddy in Maine, Bay Mills in Michigan, several others. I don't wanna leave any out, but I probably left a few out. But you know, we continue to believe that we are the partner of choice and also that we've got a great track record, if you talk to any of our tribal partners of being great partners. And you know, I think just like anything, it takes time and education sometimes.

In some states, like California, where there's over 70 tribes, I think that, you know, it's obviously about getting alignment, as much as it is about, you know, openness. And so, each state is a bit unique, just like, you know, all states in all regards, politically and otherwise, are unique in their own ways. So, we kind of have to look at it that way, but I do think there's some momentum now. More than ever, I think you're seeing, we're seeing tribes come to us and ask about what we can do. Minnesota is one that I think is another tribal state that got very close to passing a bill this past session, and, I'm hopeful that it gets done next session.

That was all about the tribes and the tracks agreeing to a deal. So, sometimes, you know, it's not even about openness, it's about getting different stakeholders within the state to align.

Chad Beynon (Managing Director and Senior Analyst)

Thank you. Appreciate it.

Operator (participant)

One moment for our next question. Our next question comes from Jeffrey Stantial with Stifel. Your line is open.

Jeffrey Stantial (Managing Director in Equity Research)

Great, thanks. Good morning, guys. Thanks for taking our question. Maybe digging in a bit further into some of the commentary on iCasino player acquisition. Jason, you talked about some sequential uplift to conversion rates from the Golden Nugget platform transition. But looking at this more strategically, I guess, has your philosophy on investing towards that iCasino-led player cohort changed at all now that Golden Nugget is fully integrated? Historically, I believe the strategy has been more to focus on cross-sell of sports users versus acquiring that higher CAC, higher LTV iCasino-led player. But just curious if your thinking here shifted around at all based on the returns that you're seeing with this recent user acquisition upside? Thanks.

Jason Robins (CEO)

Yeah, I think so. I mean, you know, I wouldn't really describe it as a philosophical change, as much as us continuing with the philosophy of following the data and the analytics, and putting our dollars where we feel that where we see the best returns. So, naturally, as you noted, when you see an increase in performance on GNOG, then that would mean that more dollars should flow there because it's performing better and therefore, should get a higher proportion of our acquisition spend. So, we definitely are moving dollars around based on performance and what we're seeing, and that's always been consistent with what we've done.

But the result, as you noted, has been some shift towards that iGaming first customer acquisition, investment, which I think, you know, again, it's all just kind of where do we get the best return, right? It's not that we think cross-sell is inherently a better way of doing it. It was just, you know, and still is, by the way, that that's where we get the bulk of our iGaming customers, and that's the most efficient means of doing it. But certainly, where we see opportunity to invest directly in acquiring an iGaming first customer, we're also taking advantage of that.

Jeffrey Stantial (Managing Director in Equity Research)

Great. Thanks very much.

Operator (participant)

One moment for our next question. Our next question comes from Lance Vitanza with TD Cowen. Your line is open.

Lance Vitanza (Managing Director and Senior Research Analyst)

Thanks, guys. First of all, congratulations on a great quarter.

Jason Robins (CEO)

Thank you.

Lance Vitanza (Managing Director and Senior Research Analyst)

I just have one question regarding the surcharge, but it does have three parts, and maybe just to focus on Illinois. Can you talk about what percentage of the EBITDA lost due to the tax rate increase is the surcharge designed to recapture? I'm just trying to get a sense for the potential upside beyond the $900 million-$1 billion guide, to the extent that the surcharge is successful. Obviously, I'm talking about fiscal 2025.

Jason Robins (CEO)

Yeah. So the way we calculated it is we set the amount such that we are targeting DraftKings covering 20%, you know, of gross revenue in taxes. And so basically, the way to think of it is any tax rate that's higher than 20%, we would be paying up to the 20%, and then the remaining would be the fee is designed to offset. So, you know, in a state like New York, where the tax rate's 51%, that's a large number. Obviously, the big question is, do we see any deterioration in handle and top line as a result?

But, you know, you can do the math and see, it would take quite a bit because, you know, if you think about 51% versus 20%, you know, that's 60% of the taxes that we're paying in New York. And, you can do the math on that from all the public reports, that's a big number. So you need to see a substantial decline in handle to get to a point where you are, you know, fully cannibalizing that. And obviously, if we saw that, we would reconsider our plan, but, I think there's quite a bit of cushion there.

Lance Vitanza (Managing Director and Senior Research Analyst)

Well, and my gut tells me that customer activity would actually be highly inelastic, at least around mid-single-digit surcharge on winnings. But... And I know you haven't done A/B testing, but do you have any data that you've seen that would bear this out? I mean, other than just, you know, our guts.

Jason Robins (CEO)

Yeah, I think you're right, by the way. You know, the best data we have is really from either other industries or from our industry in other parts of the world. There are other places where online gaming companies charge customers more because of the tax regime, and, you know, countries like Germany or Australia, as an example. It's not done exactly in this way, but it's conceptually very similar. Also, you know, we noted this earlier in the call, but a number of industries, from hotels to taxis, all have taxes in various states that get charged to the customer. People may gripe about it, but I don't really see behavior change because of it. So, you know, you're right. It depends on the level.

I think in the mid-single digits, our belief is that when you compare it to sorta other industries, as well as sorta, you know, what we just gut check think seems fair and seems reasonable to a customer, it seems like this is, this is a good zone for us, but, you know, we'll only find out when we do it. It's hard-

Lance Vitanza (Managing Director and Senior Research Analyst)

And the last part-

Jason Robins (CEO)

You can't really A/B test something like that.

Lance Vitanza (Managing Director and Senior Research Analyst)

Right. Right. And last part of my question, I'm glad that you're making the surcharge visible to consumers. As you point out, black market operators pay zero tax. A 40% tax, and obviously referring to Illinois here, that seems short-sighted, unfair, and ultimately counterproductive. And I'm wondering if part of the calculus in making the surcharge visible is that intended to raise awareness around this issue? Do you think you could possibly generate grassroots support for more rational tax policy, i.e., lower rates?

Jason Robins (CEO)

Well, you know, there's certainly, an element there that, you know, entered into our thinking. Obviously, you, you're right. When you have illegal operators paying zero tax, that's pretty tough to compete with at any level, but when it starts getting higher than 20%, it just becomes untenable. So, I do think that in absence of us doing something like this, why wouldn't more states consider it? It's not getting, you know, passed to their customers. They're not hearing from their constituents, and we haven't, you know, in New York, done anything differently, or nobody in the industry has. So I do think that this is something that may make some states reconsider, because now, you know, they may be hearing more from their citizens that they don't like it.

Jordan Bender (Senior Equity Research Analyst)

Obviously, they wouldn't be hearing anything if we, you know, from people if it weren't being charged, 'cause it's not like, you know... I guess maybe they'd hear from, like, local teams that aren't getting as much sponsorship spend, but not from, you know, the mass of voters that bet on sports, so. But in the end, I think states are gonna decide based on a number of factors. I mean, if you look at some of the comparison industries I mentioned, like taxis and hotels, it's not like you don't pay for that when you go to New York. So, I think some states feel like because of where they are and because of the value proposition they bring, that they can have higher costs in certain things, and that's not up to us.

Jason Robins (CEO)

That's a policy decision that they're gonna have to make. And, you know, as a business, we have to make the business decision that we have to make accordingly. But certainly, we will continue to advocate for taxes that allow us to compete more with the illegal market. And, I'm hopeful, and I believe most states do see that. If you look, most, the vast majority of states around the country have tax rates of 20% or under. It's just a handful that don't.

Lance Vitanza (Managing Director and Senior Research Analyst)

Thanks, guys.

Operator (participant)

Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes the Q&A portion of today's conference. I'd like to turn the call back over to Jason Robins for any closing remarks.

Jason Robins (CEO)

Well, thank you all for joining us on today's call. We are really optimistic about the second half of 2024 and are excited and well-positioned for success in the future, 2025 and beyond. Thank you for your continued support.

Operator (participant)

Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's presentation. You may now disconnect and have a wonderful day.