Itaú Unibanco - Q2 2024

Transcript

Renato Lulia Jacob (Group Head of Corporate Strategy, Investor Relations, and Market Intelligence)

Hello, good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining this video conference to talk about our Earnings for the Second Quarter of 2024. As usual, we are broadcasting directly from our office in Avenida Faria Lima in São Paulo. Today's event will be divided into two parts. First, Milton will take you through our performance and earnings for the second quarter of 2024, and then we will have a Q&A session, during which investors and analysts can ask us questions and get into the details with us. Before we get started, I'd like to give you a few pointers to help you make the most of today's meeting. For those of you who access this via our website, there are three audio options on screen: the entire content in Portuguese, the entire content in English, or just the original audio.

For the first two options, we will have simultaneous translation. To choose your preferred option, just click on the flag on the top of your screen. Questions can be submitted via WhatsApp. Just click on the button on the screen on the website, or simply send a message to +55 11 9395 91877. The presentation we will be making today is available for download on the website screen and, as usual, on our investor relations website.

I will now hand over the floor to Milton, who will begin the earnings presentation, and then I'll be back to moderate the Q&A session. Milton, the floor is yours.

Milton Maluhy Filho (CEO)

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to our meeting to talk about the 2024 second quarter earnings. In this presentation, we have primarily tried to provide executive information in order to make more time for a conversation during the Q&A session. Let me go straight into the figures to share our results. We reached the double-digit mark in quarterly managerial recurring results of BRL 10.1 billion in the second quarter and posted growth of 3.1% over the first quarter of 2024. Now, moving on to the bank's profitability, our consolidated return on equity was 22.4%, a quarter-on-quarter growth of 50 basis points, and in Brazil, our ROE was 23.6%, a quarter-on-quarter growth of 100 basis points.

I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that we are running with the Common Equity Tier 1 ratio of 13.1%. If we were to adjust the bank's profitability by the risk appetite level set by our board, which today is not permitted to operate with capital below 11.5%, we would have posted a consolidated ROE of 24%, taking into account all adjustments, and ROE of 25.7% in the operation in Brazil. So the profitability adjusted by Common Equity Tier 1 of 11.5% is 25.7% in Brazil, which is the profitability for the quarter. We have good news regarding the loan portfolio with sound growth that I will comment on later. We've been finding opportunities to grow with quality and a long-term vision by looking at longer-term cycles.

We reached the BRL 1.3 trillion mark during this quarter. Delinquency ratios are within acceptable thresholds, and I think that the delinquency indicators level that we've been working on is just as important as the steep fall that we're posting. Delinquency indicators are lower than pre-pandemic levels, and I'll talk about that later. Commission fees and insurance recorded a good quarter and posted high-quality growth of 5%. We continued to organically grow our capital base and ended the quarter at Common Equity Tier 1 of 13.1%, a growth of 10 basis points in the quarter. I'll give you more details on capital in a little while.

Going into a little more depth, let's talk about the loan portfolio. I'll focus on some key messages. The individual loan segment grew 1.2% in the quarter, and last quarter, I'd commented to you that there would still be a de-risking effect going on in the portfolio in the coming quarters. The credit card portfolio was one of the portfolios in which we had to make the biggest credit adjustment. This portfolio remains stable, which is good news because it needs to stop dropping so it can start growing again, and we're already seeing an inflection point for this portfolio this quarter. The personal loans portfolio grew 2.3% in the quarter. We also grew 0.8% in payroll loans. In vehicle loans, growth was 3.1%, and the growth in the mortgage portfolio was 1.6%.

The portfolio of individuals grew 3.2% in the year, with some more detracting effects, such as the card portfolio and the payroll loan portfolio, holding back this growth. But as I said last quarter, we are at the end of the de-risking process. So all the origination effects are already starting to be positive for the portfolio. We'll be able to notice that in the coming quarters. The SME portfolio also posted healthy growth in the quarter of 2.7% and has been growing above double digits year-over-year, posting growth of 12.5%. The large corporates portfolio posted very strong growth of 8.6% in the quarter and 16.3% year-over-year. I remind you that this includes FX impact.

I'd say that a third of this growth was due to exchange rate volatility, but two-thirds of the growth happened organically, which shows this portfolio's great momentum, and the results for Latin America, which posted growth of 13.3%, are basically explained by the FX effect. Thus, this does not necessarily represent a portfolio growth, but rather reflects FX fluctuations. As a result, we can see the loan portfolio growth of 8.9% year-over-year, and excluding FX, growth was 7.1% for the period. I had told you last quarter that we'd reaffirm the growth set in 2024 guidance, and that we'd be able to post high-quality growth in the quarters ahead. The market doubted it, but I believe that 2Q 2024 figures proved this dynamic.

By looking at the credit card portfolio, for example, we note that it was flat in the quarter, but grew 2% year-over-year. In this context, I'd like to highlight two segments that are key for the bank in terms of both the quality and the number of customers, which are Personnalité and Uniclass segments. The credit card portfolio in both these two segments grew 3.5% quarter-over-quarter and 17.3% year-over-year. These are middle and high-income segments where we've been focusing a good portion of our growth. We have good news regarding credit origination in all products. We posted quarter-on-quarter growth of 6% in the individual segment, 7% in SMEs, and 23% in large corporate segment. Year-on-year growth was of 19%, 11%, 21%, and 17%, respectively.

This shows our ability to grow and originate credit very strongly with high quality and a long-term vision. This is what we're managing to do. Deep diving at the personal loans portfolio, which includes products such as installment loans and overdrafts, 71% of the growth in 2Q 2024 came from the middle and high-income segments, named Uniclass and Personnalité segments. Again, this shows the strength of Itaú Unibanco's middle and high-income segment. It's very important to show our ability to grow in segments that still have a lot of room to continue growing, despite our very strong leadership position. With respect to the client's NII, I'd like to make an observation regarding the adjustment in Argentina, which I'll continue to make during the next two quarters.

Our last year's earnings included seven months of Argentina's results, so we're trying to normalize this effect by excluding Argentina from the analysis. Taking this and the working capital effect into account, we posted a 7.4% growth in our clients' NII year-over-year. As you can see, if we considered the core clients' NII in the second quarter of 2024 over the first quarter of 2024, by firstly disregarding the working capital effect, this NII growth would have been even greater since we would also have a drop in working capital in these deltas. The core client's NII grew 2.7% in the quarter, or BRL 600 million.

The product mix was slightly negative for the NII because, as I showed you in the loans portfolio slide, we grew more in the corporate segment than in the individual segment, and within the corporate segment, we grew more in the large corporate segment than in SMEs. This is the slightly negative mix impact on the NII. On the other hand, volumes more than offset this effect with a contribution of BRL 400 million in the period. We also have the positive effect of spreads and liabilities margins, in which liabilities margins is the more representative of the two, as it continues to expand as a result of a very strong growth of the bank's liabilities. Finally, the structured wholesale operations are also having a positive contribution in the other and Latin America line.

Even though we see a slight decrease in the consolidated annualized NIM for the quarter, it is practically sidelined when adjusting for risk. The consolidated risk-adjusted annualized NIM was 5.8% for the fourth quarter of 2023 and the first quarter of 2024, and 5.7% for 2Q 2024. The provision recognized in Latin America generated this 10 basis points impact on the consolidated NIM. The annualized NIM in Brazil dropped slightly, but as I always say, the most important indicator is the risk-adjusted NIM. Therefore, increasing our NIM and expanding our top line and our portfolio must be done with high quality. Otherwise, there will be a negative impact on risk-adjusted NIM. We continue to consistently improve the risk-adjusted NIM. Thus, I would say that this is yet another quarter of good news in terms of our NIM.

I'd like to pause for a moment to bring back this chart and tell you the reason why I'm bringing it up again. In the second quarter of last year, we showed this data because some analysts asked us how sensitive our NIM was to interest rates. We've always said that we were less sensitive than some analysts were saying. But since this issue keeps coming back, we thought it'd be important to show this data again. In this graph, we add the client's NII and the market NII, which is how we manage everything sensitive to interest rates on the balance sheet, whether it is the loan portfolio or market positions. So the first piece of information is that we set the 100 baseline in the fourth quarter of 2019, which was the last quarter before the COVID pandemic.

The second piece of information is the interest rate, which is this black line. It shows how the interest rate has behaved over time. By doing this analysis, we note that the NIM is highly stable, while interest rate behavior is very volatile. We note the interest rate rose from its lowest levels in history to the levels we have experienced recently, while both our gross margin and risk-adjusted NIM have been expanding and proving to be much less sensitive to interest rate fluctuation. I think this graph is very intuitive, and it shows our ability to manage all the risk factors of the conglomerate and be able to navigate through greater interest rate volatility cycles with a much lower impact of CDI fluctuation than many imagine. This is why we think it's important to show you this information one more time. What would this drop be?

These are the first quarters of the pandemic, during which we recognize very high provisions in the balance sheet, and that's why, in fact, we had a drop in NIM. But then we posted a very strong recovery over time. This is the message I'd like to share with you. The market NII had a very positive quarter, posting the best quarter in this historic series, both on a consolidated basis and in Brazil. In Latin America, we had a slightly weaker quarter, as you can see, and the capital hedging cost was flat compared with the previous quarters. This quarter's earnings, therefore, stand out because they were strong as a result of the operation and better risk management, seizing some market opportunities that we found, allowing us to post quality results.

Moving on to commission fees and insurance revenue, I'll start with credit and debit cards, which grew 0.8% in the quarter. In current accounts, some might ask why there's a drop in what's happening. I'd like to highlight that we disclosed to the market the support for Rio Grande do Sul, and our clients impacted by the floods in the region. Now we can see how it affected some balance sheet lines. We exempted those clients from individual and business current account fees, which explains about two-thirds of this drop in the current account fees. We had a very good quarter in the asset management business. It is important to mention that both the second and fourth quarters usually include a performance fee, which generates some volatility, but we've been able to deliver performance fees both quarter-over-quarter and year-over-year.

We remind you that last year was a very difficult year for performance fees, and although this year has not been easy, we have been able to deliver better results for some products. We posted major growth for advisory services and brokerage in the quarter, especially in DCM, which posted very strong results, in addition to continuing to expand our individuals brokerage business. Therefore, this business also helps to explain part of this growth in earnings. Year-over-year, we grew 83.5%, and I remind you that in the second quarter of last year, we were facing a very difficult time with no capital market activities, which means that this is not the best comparison. In terms of results from insurance operations, we continued to expand the top line.

We also had the effects of the floods in Rio Grande do Sul in the quarter for the insurance business, since it affects the retained claims. But the quality of the operation and the insurance penetration continues to grow organically at the same pace that we had been growing over the past years. This gives us a very sound picture of commissions and fees and results from insurance operations. Funding through the asset management business was strong and posted an increase of 22% year-over-year and of 34% comparing the first half of 2024 against the first half of 2023. This is the advantage of having a portfolio with very diverse products and being able to understand what our clients' needs are. Client centricity, which has enabled our funding volumes to grow and net new money, has been higher and higher quarter after quarter.

The pension funds operation reflects the same levers, with revenue growth of 22% in the quarter and net inflows growing 61%. So we have more volume, good advisory service for our clients, and higher profitability, as we can also deliver performance fees in pension products. And in investment banking, I already mentioned the strong DCM results. We indeed had a very sound quarter with 27% market share and once again, delivering consistent results. I'll now present the credit quality indicators, starting with short-term delinquency indicator, the NPL 15-90. In Latin America, we had a slight increase in the short-term delinquency indicator, explained by one or two corporate groups in the region, which is not worrying us. When we analyze the total delinquency ratio and the delinquency ratio in Brazil, we see a slight drop in the quarter.

90 days NPL is running at 3% in Brazil, a slight drop compared to the last quarter and at 2.7% in total. Further down, we have the Latin America indicator at 1.4%. As important as it is to analyze the trend, we must also analyze these indicator levels. When comparing the current level with the pre-pandemic one, we can see that we now operate at lower levels. So I believe that this is the most important message to convey. We have been running for some time at levels lower than pre-pandemic. We can see this dynamic in the NPL 15-90 for Brazil, which fell 10 basis points quarter-over-quarter, while the NPL 15-90 for SMEs also fell 20 basis points in the period, which projects a very positive trend. For large corporates, the indicator is at historic lows.

90-day NPL in Brazil remains stable despite the typical rollover of short-term delinquency that happens in the first quarter. 90-day NPL for individuals was 4.2% in the quarter, remaining flat compared to 1Q 2024, and is lower than the pre-pandemic level, which was at 4.8% in 4Q 2019. As I've said earlier, these indicator levels are as important as their trend. We've shown that quarter after quarter, we are operating with high-quality credit indicators, and obviously, this is where we always have to be careful with the type one and type two mistakes. The type 1 mistake is a credit mistake, which is the kind we don't want to make, and the type 2 mistake is a risk appetite mistake, which is the kind that we have been careful not to make, so that we can grow with quality.

In terms of credit quality, the cost of credit was flat, with a growing loan portfolio in the period, as I showed earlier. This leads to another decrease in the cost of credit ratio over the loan portfolio, once again, reinforcing the high quality of our portfolio. The renegotiated portfolio also fell nominally and percentage-wise, with the loan portfolio growing. Its ratio to total credit portfolio is at 3%, which is good news. The coverage indexes are all very stable, with very little volatility within a very acceptable margin when compared to the time series. There are no points for our attention in these credit indicators.

Non-interest expenses grew 4.7% quarter-over-quarter in Brazil, noting that the second quarter is typically stronger than the first quarter because of the accounting effect of vacations in the first quarter and some higher investments made in the second quarter. Excluding Argentina, growth was 7.1% year-to-date over year, and consolidated OpEx grew 5.0% in the same period. The most important thing is that the efficiency ratio continues to fall consistently, because managing the top line is as important as managing the cost, and it is this dynamic that has been translated into efficiency rates. This efficiency ratio that we are now disclosing is for the six-month period. But it is important to highlight that the efficiency ratio for the second quarter is the best efficiency ratio of a second quarter in the historic time series.

This was another quarter in which we achieved the best efficiency ratio comparable to the second quarter. At the beginning of the year, when we presented the 2024 guidance, I pointed out that core costs would grow below inflation. In effect, inflation for the last 12 months, measured by the IPCA, is at 4.2%, and core costs grew 3.8%. This shows that we have been able to keep core costs growth below inflation, but without ever leaving aside investments in our organization, in business expansion, in technology, in our digital channels, and in a better experience for our clients. This is what we've been trying to do quarter after quarter. The main reasons for the increase in the expenses line are the investments we make.

All this investment generates results and benefits over time, which is why it is important to analyze the efficiency ratio. The last slide of the presentation covers capital. Here, the most important thing to show is that we continue to grow organically, and we expanded our capital base by 0.5%, already adjusted for the dividends. Prudential adjustments, which consider effects of the mark to market of securities booked in the shareholders' equity, have consumed 0.2% of capital, with all the interest rate volatility in recent months. And the loan portfolio expansion that I was talking about just now consumed 0.2% as well. It's important to remember that the capital appetite of the board of directors for the business is 11.5%, and the capital appetite for dividends is 12%.

I'm sure that we'll cover this topic during the Q&A session. The most important message is that we are working with a very strong capital base, which allows the bank to continue pursuing growth opportunities as long as capital is not a constraint. We manage capital allocation, focusing on high quality and profitability to ensure value creation. We have a very sound capital base, which has been expanding and financing the bank's growth. So I understand that this is a very healthy dynamic for the balance sheet, which shows that we ended up with very robust CET1 and Tier 1 indicators. This is the end of our 2Q 2024 results presentation. I'd like to thank you all once again for participating in another earnings presentation. In this presentation, we did not bring up the guidance, which is naturally reaffirmed.

The guidance is not quarterly, it is annual, and we want to be able to share any developments with you. We are absolutely in line with everything we have committed to since the beginning of the year. You will certainly be the first to know if there's any change of scenario or vision.

Now, I'm going to join Renato for our Q&A, so we can discuss our results further. Thank you very much once again for your participation. Cheers!

Renato Lulia Jacob (Group Head of Corporate Strategy, Investor Relations, and Market Intelligence)

Thank you, Milton, for your presentation. It was very quick because we just had Itaú Day, three hours of initiatives and contents about our business, focused on result, and we have 13 questions waiting for you here on today's call. Well, let's start the second part of our meeting today, which is a Q&A session. Now, I remind you that we have two languages. Milton will answer the questions in the language that are asked, either English or Portuguese. If you need support for translation, you can choose the entirety of the content in Portuguese or English. Besides, you can submit your questions via WhatsApp, the number 11 93959-1877. Let's start, Milton, with the first question. We have a long list of analysts.

We have Renato Meloni from Autonomous Research. Thank you, Renato, for taking part in our call.

Renato Meloni (Equity Research Analyst)

Good morning, everyone. Thank you for the questions. Actually, I wanted to understand what is the perspective for acceleration of the portfolio of natural persons of for this quarter. But if you can give us some context, regarding the de-risking that you just mentioned, but also with the comfort that you have to accelerating the origination in all the segments of income. Thank you.

Milton Maluhy Filho (CEO)

Thank you for the question. Okay, to give you a bit more context, let me just find a camera. Right there. All right. So to give you a bit of context, de-risking, it's at the end of the process, as I mentioned on the previous quarter. The 0.35% year-on-year on that drop on the second quarter, I would like to just say that we're very close to that end, the end of this. Well, we are at the inflection point.

Until the third quarter, we should be close to that. So in the end, we have to clarify something very important. We didn't stop growing. We continue to grow in the portfolio of medium-high income, several quarters in a row. But when you look at a few portfolios in the aggregate, for example, credit cards, you have inertia of the portfolios that continue to drop nominally. So you have a strength, a gravitational strength, that pulls you down when you have your origination and a portfolio growing in other segments. We're gonna lose that negative effect, and we're gonna see the positive effect. We should observe the year-on-year growth on the portfolios in regards, growing in regards to what we observed in this quarter. This is the central message. We had the opportunity of growing in several businesses, several products, and several segments of income. So you have to be very careful when we say high income, low income.

Well, actually, we've seen opportunities in all segments in growing in a correct channel with the correct client, and we have less resilient clients in all segments, whether if it's low, medium, high income, we have to interpret well the data. That's the important thing, understanding the model, the depth of the relationship, and engage the more and more these clients. So we're looking at the future, and we can see in a positive way, the capacity of growth, especially after the good de-risking in the portfolio, but always having. Well, understanding that the level of leverage is still high, the commitment of the income of the population is still high. So you have to grow with care.

Growing a portfolio and accelerating, bringing more margin, and then returning that, it's not what we do. We do a very disciplined net margin and net financial margin, so it's the margin of the products minus the cost of credit, the expenses, and we've defended our net margin, and we are going to continue to expand on the adjusted line for the risk in, within this discipline. So we see it in a very positive way. We naturally continue with the appetite for growth, quality, and the long cycles, and removing the volatility of the portfolio, so we can continue to deliver the consistent growing results. That's the main message.

Renato Meloni (Equity Research Analyst)

Thanks, Milton. Thanks, Renato.

Renato Lulia Jacob (Group Head of Corporate Strategy, Investor Relations, and Market Intelligence)

Well, I will switch to English because I know the next question comes from Tito Labarta from Goldman Sachs. I was preempting your entrance here, Tito. Thanks for joining us for the call.

Tito Labarta (Senior Equity Analyst)

[Foreign language] Renato. My little bit of Portuguese. But thanks for the call and taking my question. Actually, follow up on loan growth, but more on the corporate side, where we saw very good loan growth, both on the large corporates. I know part of that was effects, but even without the effects, origination grew up quite a bit. SME loans also growing at a healthy pace. Just to understand, how do you think about sort of the health of corporates, you know, the health of the economy overall, and in terms of your ability to continue to lend at this pace? And then how could that, you know, maybe even, like, trickle down into the economy, right?

Because you hear a lot of concern, fiscal concern about Brazil, but, I mean, that you're growing corporate loans this strong, right, there seems to be some demand there. So just help us think about that in the context of the Brazil macro as well. Thank you.

Milton Maluhy Filho (CEO)

Yeah, sure. Thank you, Tito. Thank you for coming. Thank you for your question. I would say that the growth that we had in this portfolio, especially on the big company, has been very, very healthy. And we've been able to find opportunities. We have a very well-capitalized bank, which bring us opportunities to grow the portfolio whenever we find there is an opportunity. The DCM market in Brazil, as you know, is very active. We've been seeing the AUM growing strongly, quarter on quarter, and we've been seeing opportunities to deliver more credit to our clients and also to take the advantage to being leading in the DCM market and selling this portfolio throughout the market.

So this is kind of a revolving process, where we grow the portfolio, we sell to the market, and we, of course, open the balance sheet to finance clients that don't have access to the DCM market. So in general, speaking, although we have all those macro discussions on interest rate, inflation, the effects, we've been working since 2015 and 2016. We changed completely the way we managed our portfolio. We have a very, very, portfolio approach, risk approach for the portfolio. If you take--just to give an example, if you take the 10 largest clients or the 10 biggest clients in terms of credit, within the bank, we have less than 3.5% of our capital allocated to those clients.

So we reduced strongly the allocation, the concentration of those portfolios, and we have a very healthy balance when you look all the segments where we are inserted in. And if you look of the clients, we're always hearing this client or that client that may, or might be having an issue, with credit. We've been having good surprises. We never know, so knock on wood here three times, but we've been doing quite good in terms of credit origination and credit management and risk approach. So we are very comfortable. We do believe there is opportunity. I don't believe that we'll keep the same pace of growth, in the big companies, large companies here, as we saw in this quarter.

We believe that this pace might reduce in the coming quarters, but even though very healthy, generating a lot of business to the bank, cross-sell, and a very close relationship to our clients. In the SME, we are doing the same. We are seeing opportunity to grow with quality. If you see the delinquency ratio of our portfolio, we've been reducing the short-term delinquency 20 basis points this quarter, so very sustainable, very good quality, and very good profitability. So this is key. We're gonna keep very focused on the capital in value creation at the end of the day, capital allocation, and managing risk. So we are not, and we will never be, trying to do artificial pricing or trying to gain market share artificially. We are very focused.

So all this production and these credits that you see in our balance sheet, they have a very good profitability and return on capital. Looking, of course, the relationship we have with those clients, where we have a relevant position in investment banking, talking about ECM, M&A, DCM, and also all the other products that we can do with those clients. So we are very comfortable with the health of the portfolio and cautious, of course, always looking to the forecast and the expectations on the economy, and if there is any need to adjust the appetite, we will do so, but very comfortable and no need so far to worry with any of these growths. Very quality and good, healthy portfolio.

Renato Lulia Jacob (Group Head of Corporate Strategy, Investor Relations, and Market Intelligence)

Great, Milton. Thanks. Thanks, Tito. Now going back to Portuguese, and we have Rosman from BTG Pactual.

Speaker 11

Good morning, everyone. I wanted to steer away from the quarter, and I wanted to get an update from Itaú One. I wanted, Milton, how relevant is Itaú One for the strategy on the medium term for the bank? Do you expect, are you gonna be disappointed if you don't have success as you want, or this is just an option for your case study?

Milton Maluhy Filho (CEO)

Okay. Thank you, Rosman. Thank you for the question. I'm gonna start with the second one because, you know, the entirety of the team is watching us. We will. We will be disappointed if we, in fact, cannot advance in a relevant way in what we call the Itaú One platform. We started this process, it was a very strong work at the infrastructure, with a platform, with the unification of management, and now look for the client holistically for the whole of the relations, and there is a complexity, and there is a great opportunity as well, as well as complexity. What did we do? We started with a process that I say that is family and friends. It's a pilot that was very carefully implemented.

We have a volume of clients that have been working with this pilot, and all the indicators are very healthy thus far. Just so you know, out of all the clients that we stimulated the migration of the apps of cards for the super app, 98% migration. 98% is much higher than the expectations and much more than any migration, because we've done this in a very light way and in a very soft way, and the client is understanding that there is value being offered. We are very satisfied with the advances, and we will anticipate all the, well, the migration. We had predicted about 15 million clients that we're gonna migrate for this platform. We are working at a very healthy pace.

I don't like to give numbers, but we are probably gonna migrate 2 million, 2.5 million clients still this year. Maybe we're gonna do double that this year, depending on the rhythm, because there is a lot of quality in what we've done. It's a commitment. It's also an expectation, an estimate, given the results that we achieved in the short-term period. It's a very long journey. There's still a lot to do. There is relevant evolutions in our super app. We've benefited, because these mono apps, they had their own qualities, specific qualities. The fact that you're specialized in a journey, it gives you more advanced features regarding that journey. But we've have the best of both worlds.

We are improving the super app with what we had that was the best in the mono product journeys, also bringing to the mono product or the credit card. There is a full bank experience with a delivery that is broader and more complete. We are at a very accelerated pace, following up day-to-day, the way that we do the login with our apps. We don't have just the number of a credit card and the agency, we are looking at the CPF number. These are changes that we could only do with the modernization that we implemented in the bank. Without that, we couldn't have done so, and all the investments in IT have given us benefits at the core platform of the bank, because there are several components that are legacy, that we're reutilizing as well.

This is transformational as a journey. I'm raising the bar of the expectation. The in-house expectation is very high, but we are at the inception. In the P&L, there is no impact from the standpoint of migration. The amount of clients we have, the expectation of impact is gonna be high, and all throughout the next quarters, we are going to measure with more efficacy, more quality, more data, how our cross-sell capacity will improve the relationship with these clients as well. So high expectations, but still at a ramp-up phase.

Renato Lulia Jacob (Group Head of Corporate Strategy, Investor Relations, and Market Intelligence)

Thank you, Rosman. Now with us, next question, Gustavo Schroden, BBI. Thank you for your question.

Gustavo Schroden (Analyst)

Good morning, Milton, Renato. Thank you for the opportunity. Congratulations on the record income of BRL 10 billion in a quarter. I wanted to explore the results of Treasury. I think it really stands out. We've seen the volatility, but there is, you know, BRL 900 million, BRL 1 billion, BRL 1.4 billion. So I wanted to understand, if you can share with us, Milton, the composition of that data. I wanted to understand if there is a gross-up of, fiscal benefit of, on that you might have, how much you get from trading, just so we can understand this better. And is this gonna be a trend in the next quarters? You know, BRL 900 million, BRL 1 billion, considering the information available, this is a very volatile line.

Milton Maluhy Filho (CEO)

Well, thank you, Gustavo. It's important to--Well, thank you for the question, and congratulations. Let me start by the more objective answer. There is no way, there is no artifact, there is no gross up, there is no realization of plus value, trying to take the result to the margin. No, none. What we have in that result in this quarter is that it was a stronger quarter. Atypical, certainly. If we look at the record, we were running with BRL 1 billion some, and results in Brazil. In this quarter was a stronger quarter. I think there were many risk factors at play. We had the higher effect with trading, more with the banking. The trading had a relevant impact. It was a stronger quarter, but once again, as you said, there are two predictions that we have to do. First, if we naturally can deliver this quarter up ahead, it's gonna be a new outlier. That's not the expectation. We are trying to find the opportunities, nonetheless, but that's not really our expectation, looking at the quarters up ahead.

I think it's more reasonable to think about our margin with the market going to the thresholds of BRL 1.1 billion. Remember that the cost of the hedge of the index has gone to lower thresholds. We published with a decimal, but if you open it, it's going to reduce, given the interest rate differential. We've seen that this has been positive for the cost of hedge. So the expectation is going back to normalcy, with all the difficulty of trying to protect the line for the market. But this was a quarter that was outlier. And if you look at the DFs, you're not gonna see the effects of gross up, or plus, values being added that are not recurrent to our balance.

It's more of a risk management and opportunities that came up because of different risk factors in the different tables. It was a quarter that was exceptional, and there was no increase in the limit or the risk appetite, but it was within the framework of the risk of the bank for the market. There was no change in the appetite in the sense of limits that are available. There might have had more consumption of the limits, but within the framework that is exactly the same as the previous quarter. So these are quarters that I would say that are comparable.

Gustavo Schroden (Analyst)

Very clear. Thank you.

Milton Maluhy Filho (CEO)

Thank you, Gustavo.

Renato Lulia Jacob (Group Head of Corporate Strategy, Investor Relations, and Market Intelligence)

Next question. Now on the call, Daniel Vaz from Safra. Welcome.

Daniel Vaz (Analyst)

Good morning, Renato. Milton, thank you, and congratulations on the results. I wanted to explore the acquirer. You grew 10% year-on-year the quarter, it seems to be a maintenance of market share. You're thinking about the growth of the industry. If and when do you expect to grow above the industry? Are you all aligned with the strategy of Itaú apps? And second, I can ask later.

Milton Maluhy Filho (CEO)

Oh, great! Thank you for the question, because I wanted to clarify something and actually give you feedback on some changes. The line of acquiring, it's in the service, in the line of service and insurance, but you can only see a part of the result of the business of acquiring through that line. Because there is another part of the result that stays in the margin, financial margin with the clients.

So remember that there is the invoice of rent, MDR, anticipation, there is the flags, there is the cost of funding of that advance, and those lines are distributed. So if you try to simplify and get to our take rate, looking at that line isolatedly, you're not gonna get to the result of the acquiring. I don't see the benefit in publishing it this way because it's a partial information that doesn't give you the completeness of the whole thing. So we're discussing internally how we're gonna publish the acquiring business. Maybe we should get the issuance and the acquiring in the same line to avoid any assumption or any inadequate conclusion. Second point about market share. It's very important in your question in regards to the fact that we don't have an objective, a goal of market share.

Market share is a consequence of work, consequence of getting close to the client, a consequence of a value proposition, of an offering, of a business that is done with a client. Regardless of the fact that we're growing along with the market and we have a market share of leadership, we don't guide ourselves through market share. That's not what moves our decision-making process in the bank. What we've tried to do is the integration that was done completely, very well done with incredible quality, and we can see the level of penetration and proximity with the clients that is different. The advantage of having 100% of the bank and having an integrated operation is that you start to talk about the acquiring part of the business as a part of the business. So we did.

In the past, we looked at acquiring as a separate way, separate business. All the companies that, you know, fighting for a business that was a monoliner, that's not our vision anymore. Our vision is client, companies, value proposition, offering. And we don't guide ourselves. Not even if you look at the individual balance sheet and you try to find an assumption of the result, you're not gonna do it because a great deal is with the company's results, that is accounted in the balance sheet of the bank. So from now on, we are focusing on the client. We're trying to look at our business in an isolated way as a monoliner. Well, that is wrong. So we really believe in the integration.

It's working very well with the connection of the business, with the teams, and the value proposition for the client is what matters. We migrated from that vision of product for a long time. That's an old way of looking at our bank. We have to look at the client now, and that's the need. There is a client that is going to open the relationship through acquiring, but then they want the full bank, you know, and back and forth. There is a working capital. They might need cash management, they might need an exchange or a derivative. They need to do the capture of credit cards in their business, whether if it's online or physical. So that's how we've been working with the acquiring in the bank.

Daniel Vaz (Analyst)

Can I ask the second question?

Renato Lulia Jacob (Group Head of Corporate Strategy, Investor Relations, and Market Intelligence)

Yeah.

Daniel Vaz (Analyst)

Well, you hired 700 employees of technology. It's a number that really, really stands out. Is there any specific direction that you can give us? I know that you're doing a lot of projects simultaneously, but can you give us some color on that?

Milton Maluhy Filho (CEO)

Yeah. Daniel, great question. Great question. I think that first of all, we have to look at the mix. If you look at the amount of technology employees and the amount of employees in the bank, that doubled in the mix. So simplifying very well, very much is we're running at 17%-18%. That shows that the bank is changing the way that they're delivering products and services for the clients, the way that we are using the platforms, the importance and the relevance of technology having within the organization, not as a support area, but as a business area. So the way that we organize ourselves, the method of working and how much we've done, and we've delivered at the end with all the services and technology that we've been doing for many, many years, have given us important results. We got to the point that we need to be careful because, you know, it's not by getting more people that you're going to deliver more results. You need to take into consideration the interconnection of the platforms. Doesn't matter, sometimes you just get 100 more employees.

You have still monoliths that are not changed for a component structure. So without the modernization of the platform, we realize that there is an opportunity of accelerating the value delivery very strongly in the natural persons. We've seen that there is the acceleration of digital projects that change the experience of the client in the NPS, in the loyalty. So one Itaú has been accelerating, and we understood that we need to open different fronts now. We did the study, and we concluded that we can add more people, more team and technology to accelerate a few processes and a few projects or changes and features, changes in journeys of the client quickly, and this is what we call the throughput at the end. And we decided to, yes, increase more people, more staff.

It's not 100% for natural person, but 90% or so, and that increase is focusing in our client's natural persons, so we can accelerate several of the projects for the value delivery for our clients. The value is there, and the results are there to see. Very encouraging. If you start to test our solutions and our--now, and you will see this in six months, you're gonna see changes in products and context, in product solutions, experience, value, delivery for the client, ever more complete than what we have now. More quality within a design language that is very, within our own standards and happening very quickly.

Daniel Vaz (Analyst)

Thank you, Milton.

Renato Lulia Jacob (Group Head of Corporate Strategy, Investor Relations, and Market Intelligence)

Next question from Bernardo Guedes from XP.

Speaker 12

Good morning, Renato and Milton. Thank you for the space. Just a question, and congratulations on the results. I wanted to understand the growth of levers in the, in the bank, but also the payroll loan. It's very important for the retail. You reduced that payroll, because of the cap of the INSS. So it's very interesting to understand the strategy of this segment, the appetite of this, bank, to grow the portfolio, and we've seen ever more aggressiveness with the digital competitors, more aggressive rates that they're practicing. So it would be interesting if you can, comment on how you would, retain these clients because of the competitiveness of the, market. Thank you for the question.

Milton Maluhy Filho (CEO)

Thank you for the congratulations. Now, payroll loans, they have several angles that we can explore. First, our portfolio is very much, very well distributed. We have the biggest INSS, portfolio. We have a very important position with the business. There is a private portfolio that we have on market share that is very relevant, but a very small market, regardless of the share being big, is a smaller portfolio and a portfolio that is similar, which is the public that we've been growing. It was a relevant gap that we had, and we have been growing over the last few years. I think that the payroll of Minas Gerais is key, where we've been growing in this segment. It's not just Minas; we've done this with several others. The INSS has a change of strategy for the bank. I think that the cap of the INSS brought for everyone, first, an offering reduction for the market. It's not specific of Itaú Unibanco. And we've seen that at the end, we've reduced the impact.

We've impacted the consumption of this line, which is cheaper for the retirees because of the cap. If you look at the market, historically, was always regulated by price. Competition always existed, and competition happens at the bank, but also, through the correspondent, the distribution channels, so it was a very competitive market from start. The cap forced a dynamic in the market that you left outside, the retirees that lost access to the credit, because given the interest rates, a few specific, publics, especially the older, folk that have a specific demand, they lose the offer of credit. That impacted the, the system, and since we are very relevant in that market, we had an impact.

The second, comment that I, I do, we migrated a lot of the production. It's not that we changed the whole production, but this was a channel that in the past, the external channel represented 60% of the production for us. Now, it's more than the inverse. And now we've grew in the banking channel, our agency, our internal, and not the external, because this price dynamic with the cap is more competitive, and you can produce the payroll with loan, with profitability and with the minimum adequate return. When you go to the correspondent, you have the commission. So besides the natural challenges of the channel, that reduces the correspondent channel, and that's a big impact on the cap.

Now, there is, in the answer of Daniel, if you remember, the modernization of the platform and the features. We believe that one of the deliveries and the offerings that we really need to advance is the payroll loan in the digital channel. That has been prioritized. The additional investment that we're doing in technology and the increase in staff goes through more products and services, and payroll loans is one of those services that will be attacked with this change of experience for the client. Our vision is that with that, we can be more competitive. Funding, always an issue for everyone. We are looking at a funding that is very competitive, maybe the cheapest cost of funding in relation to the market, but we always work with transfer price.

To ensure that you're not subsidizing the business, given the cost of opportunity of that cash, that could be the limit, for example, in public bonds. So we do a transfer price that is competitive. And we can see space for growth. We've been growing in the different portfolios. Year-on-year, INSS, in fact, has been reducing. But we believe that with this digital offer, and with this change of mix and channel and production, we can continue to be more competitive in the product and all the derivatives and variations.

Speaker 12

Thank you, Milton.

Milton Maluhy Filho (CEO)

Thank you, Bernardo.

Renato Lulia Jacob (Group Head of Corporate Strategy, Investor Relations, and Market Intelligence)

Next question, Brian Flores from Citibank. Good morning.

Brian Flores (Analyst)

Good morning, Renato and Milton. Thank you for the opportunity. Question about the revenues and services, that line. Well, there is the specific line that I know that DCM was very strong, as Milton has said, but also, I know that you've done a few structural changes, facing the client, specifically. So thinking up ahead, how should we think, close to the BRL 2.5 billion that you delivered in a quarter or a line that is normalized, on a downward path?

Milton Maluhy Filho (CEO)

Thank you, Brian. Look, this is difficult. This is a line that depends on the market conditions, demand, capital markets, depends on, naturally, of the appetite of our clients to finance themselves and invest, the macro, micro conditions, several variables that impact the performance of this line. We continue to believe, and we think that we should continue to work with the market share. Well, I don't see it as an obsession for the share, but from the standpoint of the capacities that are being installed in our bank, and the capacity for the distribution of the lending of the bank, that the bank takes. We have a participation of the market above the fair share in other business.

Well, historically, we've always had a leadership position in DCM, and we believe that there is a lot of opportunities for business. And when the capital markets, they are open, we observed this this quarter. This is a certain line that generates a lot of business because the clients use the windows. There is a close of rates in CDI+, so the market is very attractive if you wanna sell finance in competitive rates, and the market has been absorbing the papers and with CDIs, with higher volumes and rates closing. So it's very healthy dynamic. How sustainable it's gonna be? Only time will tell. But I can say that this was, it was a record quarter, I would say, for DCM, but we are waiting for a certain normalization over the next few quarters. I don't know if we're gonna see quarters that are so good for results and dynamics, as we, as we've seen for this quarter, but the dynamic is very healthy.

It's difficult to project the results of this line. Equity markets, we don't see in the short term any chance. There is always gonna be a deal or a follow-up. We are looking at pinpoint ops operations, some activity, and the investment banking; it's a DCM market, per se. I'm waiting for a normalization. I don't think that it's gonna continue with the rhythm of the second quarter, but given our fair share, if the market continues to be heated up, we will continue to seize those opportunities.

Renato Lulia Jacob (Group Head of Corporate Strategy, Investor Relations, and Market Intelligence)

Thank you, Brian. Now, the next question, Thiago Batista, UBS.

Thiago Batista (Analyst)

Good morning, everyone. Congratulations on the result. Now, Milton, you commented at the beginning of the call about the utilization of capital, and that would take the ROI of the bank about 24% consolidated and 25% in Brazil. If I'm not wrong, that should be the highest level since 2015 or something close to that.

And I remember some years ago that we've discussed if the ROI of Itaú was gonna go middle teens given the competition of newcomers. So that's not happening. But, you know, my question to you, that level of ROI, ROI 2024, 2025, is it sustainable in the medium term? And do you have a plan for increasing the frequency of the capital allocation? Today, if I'm not wrong, you are optimizing the capital once a year at the end of the year and then you pay the dividend. Would that be more recurrent, maybe twice a year, something like that, so we can see, in fact, that ROI migrating to 2024?

Milton Maluhy Filho (CEO)

Well, thank you, Thiago. I think that in the end, since we do not do guidance of ROI, we are not projecting the ROI on the long term, we are projecting the value creation. As a relationship with the cost of capital, direct relationship, we've been delivering this level of profitability because of a series of reasons. We have a benign cycle of credit operation of the wholesale, with a threshold that is very high. When we looked in the past, the operation of retail had a higher ROI than the wholesale, but we never worked and operated with this level of operation of profitability in the wholesale as we've operated in these years. Maybe that's the twist of what changed, what you mentioned from the previous years and what we observe now. We, in fact, can raise the profitability of the wholesale in the broad sense of the word.

It's not just Itaú BBA. With medium and large companies, it's not just investment banking, it's the whole cross-sell and also, our asset that has a relevant, role in the value creation of the, wholesale and the Latin American operation that has been evolving all throughout the many years. So what wasn't, what wasn't in the equation at that time is that we could take the operation of wholesale for the profitability level that we've observed, and that has been sustainable, nonetheless. It wasn't just a, a jump that came, that went down. We can see quarter on quarter, we've defended the profitability of wholesale in all the businesses, including this last quarter, there was an additional increment in the profitability of wholesale.

Optimization of capital, there is risk management, there is an increase in penetration, there is creation of new businesses, there is an increase in penetration in products and services that generate cross-sells, fee business. I mean, there is a completeness here. We've been able to lead all, most of these businesses, and we've been in the first positions in the rankings, and that brings strength for our wholesale operation. When I look at the future, I think that it depends on circumstantial, macro and micro issues. We continue to operate with a 20+ when we look at the guidance, the ROI, not less than 20%. But this year, adjusted by the appetite, we have been running with an ROI level, historically, very high, and doing an important catch-up with the wholesale bank. We went through an adjustment.

We had the pandemic, regulatory issues, profitabilities of retail going down, and then we can go quarter on quarter, increasing the profitability of the retail business. In the natural persons and the companies, you remember that in the past, we ran 16% profitability in the business of retail, and now we are running at 23.5% in this quarter. So there was an important catch-up, quarter on quarter. And that, it's that blend, that mix, that makes us be able to grow profitability, and at the same time, in the corporation, everything that is a margin with the market that is not wholesale and retail, as you've observed, we've been managing to deliver results and generate alpha with the risk management of the market. So it's those all of those factors that allow us to operate with that level of ROI.

So it's a perfect alignment, maybe of the stars, obviously, but also we are subject to changes in scenario and perspectives. But, you know, looking at the horizon, relatively short term or long, in what we can observe, the bank will continue to deliver good profitability, and we are sure of that. And the quality of the result. If you look at the different lines of this balance sheet, it's a high-quality result and highly recurrent, which is very important. There are no events that are going up and down in our results, no. In the end, we have a lot of discipline and consistency in the management of our deliveries. In the capital issue, well, in practice, since we are declaring the dividend, we are doing an adjustment.

Now, in August, the dividends, the JCPs that have been declared over the last quarters, the interest on capital and debt has been done, that adjustment. The first payment, I would like to say, has been done, but I think that once a year, with the information available and with the uncertainties that we still have up ahead, there is regulatory changes, there is operational risk, there is financial review of the trading book, there is the solid basis, there is the discussions of the DTAs and IFRS 9. There is the risk of credit for the operation, increase of the risk of Basel, Basel III risk operational.

Well, when you pile up those uncertainties and plus all the perspective of growth and opportunities that we've seen, we think that doing that capital management of the optimization of capital once a year is very adequate. And we also use the hybrid tools, AT1s, AT2s, and we're going to continue to do that, always thinking about optimizing the capital base of the company. But now, distributing the dividend, we can maybe change the opinion, have some extraordinary dividend distributed, maybe, you know, in the future. Yes, that might happen. That's not what we imagine that's gonna happen, at least in 2024.

Our expectation is to end the year with a good vision, prospective for opportunities of regulatory issues, good operation of capital capacity of generating organic capital, so we can do a good calibration and do another payments of extraordinary dividends. With the information that I have today, the payment will be done. There will be an extraordinary dividend, but we also see as an advantage that we have a capital base that is very solid because the opportunities will come up. If you see that we grew the portfolio, we grew strongly in the quarter, and still we expand the capital base of the bank. I mean, there is no healthier dynamic than having a strong balance, seizing opportunities, organic, inorganic, what we know, what we do not know yet, and be ready to do movements that are necessary.

So here you have to be very careful because the perfect is the enemy of the good, as we say in Portuguese. Well, you know, we have to be objective in the value creation. If we understand that we have an adequate allocation of capital, creation of value, giving good profitability for the shareholder, that's the central driver for all of us. But it's not our objective to retain excess capital. So if in fact, in the end of the year, we do our work, and the beginning of the year, we will communicate to the market what is that extraordinary dividend, but once a year seems to be okay. You said that there was going to be a question on dividends, and yes, that was certain.

Renato Lulia Jacob (Group Head of Corporate Strategy, Investor Relations, and Market Intelligence)

Next question. We have Mario Pierry from BofA. Nice to have you.

Mario Pierry (Analyst)

Hi, everyone. Congratulations on the results. Another quarter, very predictable, good trends. I wanted to focus still on the capital. With the implementation of IFRS 9 next year, what is gonna be the impact? Did you manage to calculate the impact on capital? And another question that I have is about Americanas. It seems that the negotiations have improved. Do you have a potential for the reversion of those provisions that you had for Americanas, the company?

Milton Maluhy Filho (CEO)

Thank you, Mario. Thank you for the question. Okay, to give you some context, in the end, with the change of IFRS 9, it has an accounting change, the way that we publish our results, BR GAAP, our IFRS, more adapted to what is Basel III, but also there is a tax issue, in the sense that. You can no longer choose how much you're going to waste the tax expense of bad debt. You have to pay that PDD, that bad debt, all throughout the year. There is an optimization of tax and capital, and the main impact is the stock that the norm has to say that you have to do the amortization in three years at the time that it starts to work. So, let me start from the end.

Even if we had to do the amortization in three years, there would be no material impact for Itaú Bank. That's the first message. The bank has the capacity and result and stock that is adequate to absorb those provisions and those expenses in three years from 2025 onwards, if the norm prevails. Of course, when that happens, that generates another impact. It generates for the optimization impact for the optimization of capital, less impacts in the index, because you stop to optimize the capital PDD, that optimize a hundred, and then you have to withhold other tax credits that have a ponderation that is higher. You have the consumption of CTPF, you know, the capacity to absorb is less. So there are impacts. It's not zero impact, but they are immaterial for Itaú Bank, Itaú Unibanco.

It's not necessarily the same thing for the industry. Well, what is for us? What do we believe? We believe that there is a debate that is taking place with the central bank, with the finance ministry, so that everyone has awareness of the impact. It doesn't matter that you look--It's not gonna work if you just look at bank A or B, you have to look at the whole system. We're inside of that debate, we are inside of that. And we believe that there is a way to work with this norm, this law, to create the conditions so that there is no capital impact on the system, so that the banks continue to work and giving credit and with their activities without any relevant impact. In the end, every bank has a different condition.

The data is public, the stock, the tax, the absorption data are there for the public, and there is a premise. It depends on your analysis and ours, for the projection of the results all throughout the future. There is a tax reform that might happen this next year, might not. If there is a credit tax reevaluation, if the adequacy for the corporations drop, what is the impact of. There are many nuances here. Febraban is leading the discussion. CNF is involved with the finance ministry or the central bank. I think that all the banks are gonna have to be on the table. So to see if there is an alternative to the norm that is on set, we can work with, you know, some longer deadlines for the amortization of the stock, maybe.

That's what's on the table. We believe that the new norm is important. Certainly, it will be implemented, but the question is the timing, when effectively it will start, and specifically for the tax issue, when it's going to be implemented. But there is goodwill from everyone, because there is a common problem for everyone, and for the government, because if all the banks start to anticipate the tax consumption, that's going to impact how much the government will get in terms of amount of money. So there is goodwill, so that's within the discussion, but it's still at the beginning of the debate. Good debates, good conversations, but we don't have any other information on how that issue will be conducted.

As soon as the government will have a decision, that information will be public. But there is goodwill to mitigate and decrease, some of that impact in the system.

Mario Pierry (Analyst)

Next question--

Renato Lulia Jacob (Group Head of Corporate Strategy, Investor Relations, and Market Intelligence)

Thank you, Milton and Mario. Next question, Nishio from Genial.

Speaker 13

Good morning, Milton and Renato. Congratulations on the consistent results for the quarter. I wanted to go back to the app. It's very interesting that you are taking the risk again and the implementation of the two apps. The first part would be an update of Atlas that wasn't mentioned yet. How do you see the ramp-up of that product? It's a product that, you know, the other incumbent banks, they still don't have that. And how do you think it's going to impact the industry with this new product? And if you can share with us the level of cross-sell, the pilot plan of one, the cross-sell is the main objective for this product. How was it in the pilot plan, the cross-selling of this product, and do you expect a reversion of 98% when you do a broad rollout of that product?

Second question is in regards to your sensitivity to the margins. The analysis is very interesting. Besides the margin, you also do the hedge of the capital, and I wanted to understand on the dynamics of those two hedges that you do, that protect from the volatilities of CDI, and how should we think about that in the medium to long term? For according to the numbers that you presented, I believe that we can conclude that regardless of an interest rates that is lower. We could expect a margin, annualized margin, at least, that is adjusted for a higher risk. So is that correct? How do you think about that dynamic of margin and CDI? Thank you.

Milton Maluhy Filho (CEO)

Thank you, Nichio, for the question. Let me start by Itaú One. Our focus, central focus is, in the pilots and the discussion that was in the experience of the migration. So we do not have, like you say, we're not running after a cross-sell without completing, without having the complete migration, to the platform. It has to be a soft welcome, welcome. I migrate, and the client has to feel welcome. It has to improve the features, the quality, the experience. They have to feel welcome. The way that we can communicate with the client changes, and this has been the central focus of our pilots. That, to us, is priority one, two, three, to ensure that the migration is done with quality, with care, and that the client doesn't feel that: Oh, I migrated from the platform, and I am receiving a push of products and of offers and solutions.

Because in the end, that's not pro client. That's an old and wrong way of trying to preclude businesses with our clients. The way that we work is to work within the context of the journey of the client. First, we migrate, then we create the context. The clients start to have an app with many solutions and features. They have access to more frequency to the different solutions, and we get into the context. Do they register a Pix key? If they have the journey of the Pix, they have access to the credit of the payment with the Pix. Well, that's coming up in the future. So the pilots that we've done, the cross-sell, they are encouraging, but they're still baby steps.

There is not enough to show that this is a relevant pilot that is worth to get into any assessment or conclusion. We're still at the beginning of these pilots. Priority number one, two, and three is to ensure that these clients are on board on this new app, this new platform, this new journey. The cross-sell has to be within this context, with quality and care, so we can naturally show to the clients that there is a relevant value of understanding their migration, and their needs. Well, this is Itaú. It's work in progress. Over the next quarter, we're gonna have data to share for you with pilots and migration that has been done. About Atlas, it's important to give you some context.

Atlas, we don't see it today in the same way that we see One Itaú as something that we have to ramp up, grow, and there is 15 million clients that we have to service overnight. No, Atlas, in the end, complements a part of our value proposition and offering that was lacking. So we invested a lot of time understanding the needs of the entrepreneurs, talking to the clients, understanding their demands, throughout these years. And we did a relevant revision of all of our model for service, for the proximity of where the products, all with. It was a complete review. And the campaign that we've just done for the repositioning, you only do the campaign when you really have an important change in the value proposition and offering for the client.

So the campaign for repositioning is based on that, because we've been growing with quality in our business, in our company's business, and we think that this is a good moment for growth, for acquiring new clients, increasing the bases. And with a campaign of repositioning, we are ready to ramp up our operations in the companies. How Atlas is inserted in that? It's another value proposition. You have within the pyramid of the companies, there's different segments. For each of them, a value proposition that is very niched, understanding the needs of the client, the entrepreneur, and Atlas gets in for the companies, those companies that wants to self-service, want to be fully digital, simple products within a context, with artificial intelligence, and that we can, in fact, understand with data the needs of the client.

We can deliver the context within this journey. Atlas is also at the inception phase. It's a pilot. It's a few thousand clients that are operating in Atlas. Our expectation is that, as those clients are becoming more digital, and they have digital needs, Atlas is within our value proposition, providing that. So it cannot be seen as a business that is separated from the bank. In the end, it's part of the offer of the business unit, companies. They service the complex needs and services the simple digital needs of the clients. So I don't see it in the same way that I see One Itaú. That's why we're not providing many details, because it's part, once again, of the value proposition of this segment. Now, the other question about margin, it's natural that the business has some sensitivity to the interest rates.

I would like to say, from what is visible, with the interest rates dropping, we have two effects. First, the working capital of the bank that suffers, naturally, as you roll out that operation, there are lower rates and the liabilities of the bank. That impact also in the interest rate. There are benefits with the reduction of the interest rate. The differential of the interest rate drops, the cost of hedge also has an impact. But the two big impacts here are those two. On the other hand, when that happens, you have more opportunity for growth in the portfolio, with the interest rates lower, and the delinquency tends to be lower, given the interest rate level. Now, our portfolio today, whether it's on the liability or assets, we can—it's very balanced.

So whether if it's navigating with the margin of the market, the way that we do the hedge of the risk factors, whether if it's the margin with the client, and the way that we operate with these different businesses, that has brought balance to our margin. So you have negatives as the interest rates, but you have several positives, and you have several positives and negatives in the other scenario. Besides that, our portfolio for business is very balanced. So you have business on the wholesale and the retail that will compensate themselves all throughout the cycle. That's why the risk adjustment is important to be taken into consideration in this series. That's the central point. The cost of the hedge of the index, it's important that you mention that. It's almost like a satisfaction of a decision that we took two years ago.

When we made the decision of doing the cost of the hedge of the index, the first vision is, "Oops, there is a cost." And we said that it could cost BRL 500 million per quarter when the decision was done. And when we did the guidance for that year, we removed BRL 2 billion for the margin, for the market, which was the exercise of the cost of the hedge of the index. What happened is that the differential on the interest rate, besides the management, has brought lower impacts. But imagine what happened with our capital index, had we not done the hedge of the index all throughout these years. With this volatility, you see that the portfolios of the wholesale grew a third through exchange rate and all the Latin American operation.

If we had not done the hedge of the index, what would be the capital index right now? Would we have that access? Would we be able to grow with the same strength that we've been growing? Would we be able to have that-- to bring you that predictability, to do great-- big projections on the long term? So today, when we look, we look in the rearview mirror, that was a great decision. Of course, there is a cost. We invested in other, other currencies and not reais, but it brought a great stability for our, capital index. And the more stability you have, the more safety you have, the bigger is your capacity to protect growth, making the decision-making process inorganic, organic, without worrying if it's-- if we're gonna have capital or not in the next quarter. So that's the central core point.

And of course, in the scenario of changing interest rates, treasury operations, and especially the banking book, has a sensitivity that is natural to the levels of interest rates. But we are always working to leave a framework of limits and spaces, so we can manage our assets and liabilities, and do a good hedge of the bank when we think that it's appropriate. So that balance with the margin, with the market and the margin with the clients, we've done level of sensitivity with interest rates much lower, so that's why we have that record, the history.

Well, guys, I'm just going to ask you two minutes, going back to the second question of Mario of BofA. You know, it was so complex and complex, and we forgot about the question about Americanas. Can you comment that second part? I was just reminded.

Well, good. Yes. And you see that the objective was not to steer away from the question, Mario. Let's go back. Americanas. In fact, we adopted a strategy of lending in a relevant way, limiting in a relevant way, and at the bid, the data is there. We did a management with the information that we had, of reducing relevantly the exposure and the risk. Naturally, we continue. The participation that we have in the company is very small, very, very irrelevant, and there is still some credit lines without getting into a lot of detail because of the.... We cannot comment, but, with the data that is public, that's the information that I can give you. And I would like to say that at this moment, we're discussing what are gonna be the impacts.

Remember that when we did the provision for Americanas in the balance sheet, in the fourth quarter of 2022, the subsequent event, what we-- What did we do? Half is, well, rounding up. About half of those provisions were done in the complementary, the complementary provisions, so we attributed a complementary provision for Americanas, and the other part, about half, went through the P&L of the bank. So when you have a reversal, a receivable, it has an impact in several lines, from lines of P&L and the complementary ones. What are we going to discuss is, you know, taking into consideration the quarter that will be closed in the next months, and we always review the portfolio case by case, where there is a provision, where do we need it, what, what's the scenario that changed? Then we're gonna have a clear vision.

Since this is not an effect that will be repeated in the next quarters, this is an isolated effect. My opinion is that not giving that information precisely now does not impact the model and the flow that you have to look at the future, given the isolated effect and the one-off that it has in this business. Possibly in the next quarter, when I talk about this result, you will get the details on how we work the Americanas case. But the fact is, from the standpoint of complementary or the P&L, we're gonna have a relevant receivable of a provision that was 100% done in the balance sheet. That's a positive news, a recovery that is relevant given the provisions. But how are we going to work it and allocate it? We haven't made that decision, and that's for the future.

But, Mario, it's important. It's an important question, because I read all the reports that were published yesterday. You have to have precisely the coverage of the wholesale. It has a high. It's very high because we do the provisions before we have any delays. Those clients are, you know, they don't have bad credits, so it has. It gives you a false sensation of excess in regards to delay, but any delay that it has, the degree of the sensitivity for the wholesale is big. So any changes in the P&L, you have volatility. So that's why you have to look at the total coverage level and not guide yourself through the index of the wholesale, because it doesn't tell you a lot.

Americanas has a provision done in the balance sheet, but the delay is not there. So in the end, we are gonna have some impact looking up ahead, in Americanas, and depending on the decision-making process that we do, it will have an impact in the coverage index. But, you know, to give you some numbers, 10, 15 points in the coverage points level, total is reasonable to take into consideration, depending on how we treat Americanas in the next quarter. But this is to give you sensitivity. It's more material in the index of coverage for the wholesale than the whole. So it's important that you take this care and you don't do when you don't do the evaluation of the index of the coverage of the wholesale, it's high volatility because of immaterial effects.

Speaker 13

Thank you, Milton.

Renato Lulia Jacob (Group Head of Corporate Strategy, Investor Relations, and Market Intelligence)

Now, continuing. Thank you, Yuri, for waiting. Welcome to the call.

Speaker 14

Thank you, Lulia and Milton. Congratulations on your results. It's no surprise that they are good. I wanted to ask about wholesale. I wanted to explore the margin. We see that the portfolio is growing, growing year-over-year. Of course, there is exchange rate, of course, there is Selic and LatAm. Here, we're thinking about those points, but the NII grew 0, the portfolio grew 11%, the ROE capped at 28%, and fees didn't grow. So the bigger portfolio, higher leverage, thinking about assets on PL. So what are the drivers that are behind this? So, so it might be LatAm or fees, that we're not making so much money in NII, but we're monetizing the clients through FIIs. So just those economic issues on wholesale. Thank you.

Milton Maluhy Filho (CEO)

Good question. Good to clarify. It's important to understand how we work those results, and we provide the results in the business model. The wholesale has LatAm in their asset, so let's leave it on the side for a bit and look at Itaú BBA per se, those activities and businesses of credit. What happens here? We are working with 12% of capital, which is what we use. Minimum of the dividend also allocated in the business. We made a decision of allocating in this quarter a capital of 11.5%, and leaving the excess of capital of 11.5%, and how much we have, in this case, 13.1%, in the corporation of the bank. So when you look at the business model, we publish wholesale, we publish retail, and we publish corporation plus margin for the market.

So what happens when you do that? First, an automatic impact. I am allocating less capital in the business because I left from 12% and I went to 11.5%, first. So secondly, we leave in the business, the Selic rate. Even though I do the hedge of the working capital of the bank in several vertices, in the business model, we have the daily Selic in the business. So any reduction in the Selic in the time has immediate sensitivity in the business and not in the corporation, because corporation is working with longer vertices.

Since I allocated less capital in the business and I went from 12% to 11.5%, the allocated capital of the business being lower provides you less interest because it has less capital and Selic dropped, and that's directly in the margin, in the NII. So when you look at the NII, it has an important component for the effect of the working capital, whether if it's a change for the 12% to 11.5% or the structural drop of the interest rates in the period. Those are the two main effects.

And the other effect that you just captured, that is very important, is that when we do the management of the business, we look at NII, and we look at the revenue of FIIs and services, because a great deal of the cross-sell of the credit that is done in the NII, it gets into the line of services of services and insurance. So there you have all the other businesses, whether it's exchange rate and a fee of investment bank, which is a very strong franchise. So when you look at our growth, that is important in this quarter, there is a third effect that you have to take into consideration. A great deal of the portfolio was produced off over the last few months, so it has an effect in the income that generates the NII that is lower.

So the growth is at the end. You cannot capture fully the those effects. There is the two effects of the capital that I mentioned, whether if it's 11.5%, so I allocate less capital, and I give less remuneration of capital for the business and the interest rate that drops. And there is the other effect that a great deal of the result is in the service, in the line of service and fees, that it balance that vision of profitability from the standpoint of the client. So looking at that whole, you see the effect, and that's why the ROI, regardless of that, the ROI of the business grows, goes up. And why does it go up? Because I have less capital allocated, so you can save more leverage in the relationship of 12% to 11.5%.

I take that excess to the corporate. I keep the excess of the capital, 11.5% until the 13.1%, with the effect of spread against the Selic is in the corporate, and with the effect of the margin with the market. So that's how we publish the business model, and that's why you see that effect that is very specific in the wholesale. Thank you.

Thank you, Yuri. Next question, Arnon, Santander. Welcome.

Speaker 15

Good morning, Milton. Good morning, Renato. Congratulations on the results. Revenue of BRL 10 billion, good number. The question is the portfolio of credits of you, the share of the interest rate has dropped, that is working with the de-risking that you mentioned, but maybe at this moment you're going to go back to the appetite of the—appetite for risk for the lower income. And how should that work with the parcelado and rotativo?

Milton Maluhy Filho (CEO)

Well, thank you, parcelado—Thank you, Arnon. Sorry. Okay, so you went to the point. The effect, the effect of de-risking has a lot of benefits, benefits for margin, delinquency, but it has that perverse effect because it decreases, given the profile of the clients, the propensity of finance on the credit card, whether if it's the interest rate on the credit card or the interest rates on the credit card, which is a parcelado. So we have the profile of the interest rates that is different from the market. If you look, we got to 14% of the finance payer portfolio with the interest rates. And I always talk about the parcelado, the with the interest.

Of the 130 billion of credit card that we have, 86% of that portfolio doesn't pay interest rates, but we have risk of credit, and we only receive the exchange that is in the service line. So that's the anomaly that exists. Only 14% of that portfolio pays interest rates in the credit card. So what is our vision? First, we have to be very careful because we are always looking at the client, their needs, and we're trying to offer the best product in the best rate possible. So the credit card product, it's not a product for financing consumption. It's a product for payment that is very-- It's a way of payment that is very efficient.

And on the other hand, on the other hand, as the client needs to finance themselves through the product, it's not the best product for financing. The client has to look at the other alternatives. The interest rate on credit card rotativo is not used—should not be used for financing. It corrects the delay for the client for not paying the credit card and directs the client to home equity, whatever the credit line that the client has access. Another credit line, therefore. Our vision is that as the portfolio is stabilizing, we might see an increase in the provision, an increase over time, but it's a portfolio with the risk profile that is different from what we had in the past.

The biggest impact in the P&L of the credit card is the delinquency, the delay. But this is a client that is not paying, and that you charge high rates. So from the standpoint of financial health of the result and the quality of the result, it's not a good quality. So in the end, yes, we've been working with a propensity level that is lower, depends on the cycle, depends on the evolution of the product that we've been working, to offer conditions that are more competitive and solutions of finance within the credit card chassis. This is an evolution, and also, there might be an evolution with that. But it's the profile that dictates the rhythm, and because it's a portfolio of high medium income rate, it has lower propensity.

Speaker 15

Thank you, Milton.

Renato Lulia Jacob (Group Head of Corporate Strategy, Investor Relations, and Market Intelligence)

We have with us Nicolas Riva from Bank of America. Hello, Nicolas, welcome back to the call.

Nicolas Riva (Analyst)

Hi, Renato. Thanks, and thanks, Milton, as well. Nice to see you guys. So, Milton, I have a few questions on your bonds, on your Tier 2s and your AT1s, given that the call option approaches on the 29th in November, and also on the 4 5/8 on the AT1s in February. So far, you haven't been calling the AT1s, but you can call in each coupon payment date. And also, looking at prices, it's interesting because it seems that the market is kind of assuming that you're not gonna call the 4 5/8 in February. It's trading well below the call price par.

But the 2AT1s that you didn't call in the past are trading just above the call price, and you can still call them every six months in each coupon payment date. And then on the Tier 2s, I think in the past you have highlighted that even though you cannot say beforehand what you plan to do regarding the call option, the Tier 2s start losing capital treatment if not called, which I think gives an incentive really to call the 29th in November. And looking at market prices, they are trading at the call price, so it seems that the market is assuming you are gonna call the 29th in November. So any thoughts you can give us regarding the call options on the Tier 2s and the AT1s would be welcome. Thanks, Milton.

Milton Maluhy Filho (CEO)

No, no, no. Thank you, thank you, Carlos--It's Nicolas Riva. It's always good to see you. Thank you for your question. Let me go through. So on the AT1, we keep doing the same thing we've done in the past decision. So we are looking also all the economics around what would be the new price of new issue, if we do, and what would be the reset premium. So we believe that today, we would pay at least 100 basis points more, if we exercise the call and try to tap the market with a new AT1. So at least, okay? So that means that whenever, on an economic way, we don't feel comfortable to exercise the call due to the impact on the new issue.

We want to exercise the call, the same logic that we adopted all the other calls. So we know that we have every six months, the decision to be made, and we're gonna follow through. And if we believe there is any change in the market or any situation that allows us to do in a different way, we'll be more than glad to exercise the call if it's the case. But looking with the information we have today on the AT1, we don't believe it's the case now due to the repricing and the reset that we have to do in those transactions. Now, going on the AT1--on the Tier 2, we have some calls to be exercised in November.

We haven't made the decision yet, so it's very important to tell you that we are always analyzing what would be a new issue, if we can issue locally or abroad, where and what is the size of the opportunity, what will be the new issue premium, what would be the new price if we have to tap the market. But it's very important to make it clear, we haven't made the decision on the tier two yet. We are discussing that. There's a lot of discussions going on at this moment. Whenever we have this decision made, of course, the market will be the first one to know. And you are right, you have and you lose the capability to use that for capital on the remaining tenor of those bonds.

So at the end of the day, we're gonna take this in consideration in the decision to be made. So again, we haven't made the decision. We are having, at this moment, this discussion. Whenever we have this very clear inside the bank, we're gonna release and let all of you know what will be our decision on the Tier 2.

Nicolas Riva (Analyst)

Thanks very much. We can, if I can--

Milton Maluhy Filho (CEO)

Thanks, Nicolas. And, for our last question, we remain in English because we have with us here, Carlos Gomez-Lopez from HSBC. Hello, Carlos. Good to see you.

Carlos Gomez-Lopez (Head of LatAm Financial Institutions)

Hello, thank you very much. Thank you for two things, one, for your generosity with your time; this is a very long call. Second, for showing us the costs, including Argentina, not only on the revenues, but also on the cost, so that we can see the true picture. A very simple question. You mentioned earlier, the uncertainties, regulatory uncertainty that you have. You are always negotiating with the government, different aspects, of your activity. What is the focus now? Last year we were talking on credit cards. What is the main thing that the banks today are discussing? Is it this, DTA treatment, is it still the card, or is it the IOC? What is in your mind right now?

Milton Maluhy Filho (CEO)

Yeah. Thank you. Good to see you, Carlos. Thank you for your words and to know that for me, it's always a pleasure to have the most quality time with you here to go through all the details about the bank. So thank you for your comments. So I would say that the DTA that we were having the discussion right now is the discussions that we had more, I would say, the past or previous months. It's always discussions on CSLL if it's gonna increase or not.

I think it's very clear, and Haddad made it very clear, recently, that the idea is not to hike the social contribution of the banks, because you have to take in consideration that we have the highest amount or highest rates when compared to other countries and other banks around the world. So this is important to highlight. The DTA has been part of the discussions. Credit card is always gonna be an ongoing discussion, always gonna be an ongoing discussion, so I don't think we solved the problem that structurally we have. But this is, I would say, an ongoing discussions. This topic will come back, will be a little bit quiet. We have more discussions, but the main topic, I would say, it's the DTA right now.

There is no discussions on IOC, there is no discussions on the new reform, on capital and gains. There is no, no discussions coming from that side. And there is the regular discussions that we have about general topics, the economy, the market, interest rate, that we talk about, the fiscal side. So I would say regular discussions, but nothing that needs to be highlighted here. So very regular discussions and the common course of business, I would say.

Renato Lulia Jacob (Group Head of Corporate Strategy, Investor Relations, and Market Intelligence)

Thanks, Milton. Thanks, Carlos.

Carlos Gomez-Lopez (Head of LatAm Financial Institutions)

Thank you.

Renato Lulia Jacob (Group Head of Corporate Strategy, Investor Relations, and Market Intelligence)

Now we finish the Q&A session. We answered to all the analysts that connected today with the call, all the questions. The questions that might come up through WhatsApp, through the IR--are gonna go directly to the investor relations team, are going to be answered there. I give you the floor, therefore, to close our earnings call.

Milton Maluhy Filho (CEO)

Thank you, Renato. Thank you for working with us. Thank you everyone that took part. Always a pleasure to be here with you. We try to do a presentation that is very executive, so we have time to talk and discuss the issues, get into the details with the most transparency as possible. You're never going to leave this call without answer. We are always going to take care of the quality and the transparency of the information. I wanted to seize this moment to thank you.

To thank something that is very serious. We are very honored with the recognition that we've had from Itaú, that we were recognized by you, and the sell side, and the buy side, and all the categories of Itaú. And we were very honored. Second year in a row that we are recognized in all categories. This doesn't make us rest on our laurels. No. Responsibility continues, it increases. We want to do more, to deliver more, and to be ever closer to you with a maximum transparency, delivering the data, information quality on the books, quality on our calls and publications, quality on the Itaú Day, which is so important, and we try to open there as most as we can.

We always try to give strategy, telling you more, but since we have that relationship with the investors and the market, if we are in doubt, we make them as, you know, we have trust on the long term. Thank you for your recognition, and everyone that is watching. Our commitment to the bank is top with the organization, with the country, and we are going to diligently work to deliver solid results, consistent results, and especially quality results. Always thinking on the long term, never sacrificing the short term to deliver results, whether if it's by the growth in revenue, the reduction of on expenses, we are always investing in the franchise and working with a 100-year anniversary for the next 100 years. Thank you for your patience, and time, and dedication to the call and the questions. Have a nice day.

We will see each other in the one-on-one meetings, and see you on the next call.