Natuzzi - Earnings Call - Q4 2024
April 24, 2025
Transcript
Operator (participant)
Welcome to the Natuzzi S.p.A. Fourth Quarter and Full Year 2024 Financial Results Webcast. As a reminder, if you'd like to dial into the conference via telephone, please dial plus one four one two seven one seven nine six three three, then passcode three nine two five two one zero three pound. Once again, to dial in via phone, please press plus one four one two seven one seven nine six three three, then passcode three nine two five two one zero three pound. In addition to the link already provided to join via video. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. Following the introduction, we'll conduct a question-and-answer session. Instructions will be provided at that time. Joining us on today's call are Antonio Achille, Chief Executive Officer; Pasquale Natuzzi, Chief Executive Chairman; Carlo Silvestri, Chief Financial Officer; Daniele Tranchini, Chief Marketing and Communication Officer; and Piero Direnzo, Investor Relations. As a reminder, today's call is being recorded. I'd now like to turn the conference call over to Piero. Please go ahead.
Piero Direnzo (Head of Investor Relations)
Thank you, Kevin, and good day to everyone. Thank you for joining the Natuzzi's Conference Call for the 2024 Fourth Quarter and Full Year Financial Results. After a brief introduction, we will give room for the Q&A session. Before proceeding, we would like to advise our listeners that our discussion today could contain certain statements that constitute forward-looking statements under the United States security laws. Obviously, actual results might differ materially from those in the forward-looking statements because of risks and uncertainties that can affect our results of operations and financial condition. Please refer to our most recent annual report on Form 20-F, filed with the SEC for a complete review of those risks. The company assumes no obligation to update or revise any forward-looking matters discussed during this call. I would like to turn the call over to the company's Chief Executive Officer. Please, Antonio.
Antonio Achille (CEO and Executive Director)
Thank you, Kevin. Thank you, Piero. It's a pleasure to be again with you, and good morning to the people joining from the U.S., and good afternoon for those joining from Europe. We're going to be today discussing the result of the last quarter and the full fiscal year 2024. As usual, we'd like to provide also context and what we are working on beyond the figure we're going to be sharing. There's a reason why with Pasquale we also decided to invite our Chief Marketing Officer that will be testifying together with Pasquale the standard that our brand retail journey went up to now. Let me start with the financial. As you have read by our press, we closed the year at EUR 318.8 million, 3% lower than last year. As you know, the market continues being quite volatile and challenging.
This is a level of sales which, of course, does not make us satisfied. At the same time, I believe it's a testament that our company is very resilient in light of a very volatile and true 2024, still a very soft market in most of the geography we operate in. Looking at the share out of the total, which is represented by branded out of the EUR 318.8 million, EUR 289 million has been made through our brand. This is definitely part of our vision initiated by our Chairman, Pasquale, of transforming a manufacturer into a brand retailer. This figure compared with EUR 295 million in 2023 and EUR 295.9 million in 2019.
While we look at 2019, we continue looking at 2019 as a comparable year, as a year of comparison, because it was the last year before this very prolonged period in which we actually witnessed everything from COVID to wars to duty war. It's interesting to flesh out that in 2019, our sales were higher, were EUR 387 million, but when you look at the branded sales, we're pretty much at the same level. This means that we've really been working to improve the quality of sales, which then is going to be reflected in margin, which is something we'll comment later on. In fact, today, branded sales represent roughly 93% versus 80% in 2019.
I hope you appreciate that we increased by almost 13% the quota of revenue that we do through branded business, which is, of course, a more representative way of our value, not only in terms of margin, but a way of expressing the DNA of the company. Another element which goes hand in hand with that is the relevance of the retail, because typically, if you are branded, you want to express the DNA and the customer experience in a more controlled environment, being a freestanding store, the U.S., or franchising or a gallery, which is our way to ensure a presence in a multi-brand retailer. Looking at the direct operator store, in the year, we reported EUR 70.1 million, which is up 4% versus 2023 and 18% versus 2019.
The growth has been mostly in terms of top line driven by the U.S., where it is important also to remember we opened an additional store in 2024, in particular in Denver. At the same time, to better interpret those data with a like-for-like approach, it's important to notice that we also closed two non-performing stores of Natuzzi Italia, one in Spain and one in Switzerland. Additionally, we closed one store not performing of Divani&Divani, which, I remind you, is the brand used to sell Natuzzi Editions. How you should interpret this closure? In a positive way, because the company started retail, and this will be something we'll be discussing today, 30 years ago. The company and the collection were very different.
Some of the locations where we opened initially the stores, not only maybe they changed location because city evolved, mall evolves, but also because our brand evolved. This is particularly true for Natuzzi Italia. Natuzzi Italia today is a very different brand than it was 20 years ago. Some of the locations, they do not represent any longer our brand. When there is an opportunity to exit the contract, the location contract, we take it to then requalify the network. Another important element we keep on very focused through 2024 is continuing our transformation. I would define it as silent in the sense that luckily no single line of newspaper has been written on this, but very, very pervasive.
In 2024, we let go 638 people, roughly out of which in China, where, and I will discuss later, we relocate our production from Shanghai, which was not any longer cost-effective, especially for labor, to Quanjiao, which is 300 km south, which offers a better rents and cost condition. In doing so, and again, I think the credit goes very much also to our Chairman, which helped really to anticipate some of the things happening outside, we decided not to have any longer the production of Natuzzi Edition for North America and China, which was moved in October 2024 to Europe. We did not have any anticipation of what would happen, but this proved clearly very smart in the light of the evolving tariff, because it would have been impossible to serve North America from China.
The new plant in Quanjiao is entirely dedicated to the domestic market, to the China market, where we operate with our achievement. Looking at the perspective more with a three-year horizon, which is the horizon I've been having the honor to serve the company, we let go 1,141 people as net reduction, which means that at the same time, we added more than 100 people to reinforce our marketing and retail competencies. Daniele, for instance, is one of those hires. We reduced by 26%, by 1/4, by 1/4 the total account of the company. Quite pervasive. Again, privileging to protect and reinforce the school of the new Natuzzi merchandising, retail, marketing, digital Italy, and reducing the historical large capacity we had in production, which was due when the company was a manufacturer in the large volume business.
2024 gross margin closed at 36.3%, again improving by 2 percentage points versus 2023, where it was 34.3%. I repeat it because I understand it was not very clear. The margin in 2024 was 36.3% against 34.3% in 2023 and 29.7% in 2019. Versus 2019, we improved the margin by almost 7 percentage points, and we continue improving also in two years, which again, I would say they were not definitely easy for many aspects. How does it play in terms of break-even? It's interesting to note that, for instance, in 2019, when we had EUR 387 million sales, so roughly EUR 70 million more than we had this year, the company closed with EUR 22.5 million losses, while this year we closed with EUR 70 million less revenue, with EUR 6.3 million losses, which, of course, does make us very, very, very unsatisfied, very unhappy.
I think it's testified that the company is lowering the break-even. In fact, if we don't consider the restructuring that, according to the IFRS, they are inputted before the EBIT, the operational loss would have been EUR 1 million. Clearly, we are not operating with the expectation of losing. We want to definitely win and be profitable. I believe it gives you a sense of how the machine now is responding in terms of extracting value from what we do. In terms of net financial cost, there's been pretty much stability. As you know, for the IFRS principle, according to our IFRS principle, part of the lease goes under this net financial cost. In particular, we had EUR 0.7 million that were due to the fact that we increased the number of stores in 2024, which explained the difference in net financial cost.
We continued on the program to divest from strategic assets. As we've been very transparent, the board approved a proposal from the inside shareholder to acquire High Point, which has been completed. The transaction has been completed in March 2025. We give transparency in this press release. Of course, the additional payment, which was reported of EUR 8.3 million, is not yet reflected in the net cash position of the rear end, because we closed the net cash position on the 31st of December 2024, while the transaction was completed in March 2025. It will be something visible next round. I will not go line by line in commenting the last quarter. The things which I maybe flesh out, they are two.
The reallocation between plants, so the closing of Shanghai and the transfer of the production for the domestic market to Quanjiao, which had, of course, a ramp-up, and moving all the Natuzzi Editions Collection from North America in the U.S. has been well planned, but of course, they are quite a significant move. Operation in the last quarter were not able to fully keep up with the production pace. In fact, we increased the backlog of EUR 6.4 million in the last quarter that, without this change in production, should have materialized in terms of sales for the quarter. Last quarter was really affected by that. The other element I maybe I flesh out is that the last quarter closed at 38.1% in terms of margin.
Again, I will say a nice progression, because if we look at just the last quarter, again, it's quite an increase, because the last quarter of 2023, the margin was 30%, so 8 percentage points compared to the previous year. This, of course, is something we're going to be very disciplined and try to defend and amplify. This is for, let's say, the financial. Of course, we will be very happy to take more questions. Let me provide some color on what we are working on. In 2024, we work very hard in the group future, because we do believe this group has a strong future. It's a kind of combination, because you need to manage the cost with the microscope, but use the telescope to keep looking at the future, because if you are just too tactical, you don't build the future.
You can also die by being too tactical. We really focus on cost control, but at the same time, maintaining the ability to invest for brand, for retail system. I mentioned already the achievement in terms of margin. This is, for us, something, of course, important. Again, it is the direction we are going to be continuing. The other aspect I will mention is the hard work, which is not yet, I will say, reflected in sales that has been taken to really transform a company, which for a long part of its history was a manufacturer, to a company that had the vision to become a retailer, but then had to become a retailer in terms of systemic competencies.
On this, I would like to call in Pasquale, who is the person who can testify best at this journey, because it was his vision and he is best able to describe how hard it was with him, also with the new team, to transform a very successful manufacturer into a company that needed to learn a new job, being a retailer. I think it would be nice to hear directly from him how difficult, but also what has been the important step achieved by the company under this dimension. Pasquale, do you mind sharing your view with the team?
Pasquale Natuzzi (Founder and Executive Chairman)
Probably, Antonio, we should first allow the shareholder to ask some questions, okay? I mean, let's interact in this. We shouldn't always talk. I mean, let us allow our shareholders to ask questions.
Antonio Achille (CEO and Executive Director)
Absolutely. Let's open a first round of discussion.
The other point in the agenda I might cover directly or with the help of Pasquale is the work we have done in the commercial side, which I want to share, because, of course, I believe you should tell us, but I believe as an investor myself in the companies, okay, you've been working on the margin, but when the revenue will come? Because now the machine, if you wish, is ready to deliver better results, but we need sales. I want to tell you what we are working to get sales. Let me stop here for a first round of Q&A.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. If you'd like to ask a question at this time, please use the ask a question feature on your screen. Once again, anyone who'd like to ask a question at this time, please use the ask a question feature that is on your screen.
At this point, it appears nobody has any questions at this time.
Antonio Achille (CEO and Executive Director)
Okay. Let's complete the presentation, and I'm sure there will be questions at the end. The aspect I was mentioning, and Pasquale, you jump anytime, but then I will ask differently Daniele to comment, is the transformation in the direction of being a retailer. Do you want to contribute, Pasquale, or should I continue as you prefer?
Pasquale Natuzzi (Founder and Executive Chairman)
No, no, no. You can continue, Antonio. Don't worry. I'm here just to support you in any way.
Antonio Achille (CEO and Executive Director)
Feel free to jump anytime. Very transparently, because we are always being very transparent with you as an investor.
In 2000, the company decided to become a retailer, because they also understood, and this was really credit to Pasquale of this lucidity, that being a manufacturer out of Italy, being a value manufacturer out of Italy with euro, with inflation, was not any longer defendable. They also understood that the story under Natuzzi had the legitimacy to sustain a brand positioning, because there was innovation, there was style, there was also this mythological ability to create beauty, which are all elements which are at the core of a brand. A brand is a retailer by definition. This vision, in fact, encountered quite a significant success with Patton that decided to open in stores, but also Natuzzi decided to open in stores.
At the time, there was a significant disconnect between that vision and operation, because systems were not allowed to read data and see it out timely. There were no competencies to manage aspects which are critical for a retailer, like merchandising, like customer experience, visual. Neither ability to decide, and we discussed before about the closing of some stores, whether a location was completely appropriate. There was not yet a methodology. The company, in a sense, had to learn why it was already on flight, because stores were opened, expectations were generated, but systems were not there. I must say that I'm particularly impressed, and you know that my background has been for 25 years in advisory, by the speed in which this company has been able to equip itself with tools, competencies, and systems and people.
Under the last three years, we created a new division that were not simply existing. We created a Customer Experience division with a wonderful gentleman that in one of our calls, I will introduce you, Michele Ciani, which is setting rules on how to create emotion within the store, because a store is not like a transaction place. It's a place where you have to create emotion. We now defined that every product needs to be launched on the market with an end-to-end marketing approach. In fact, we abolished the word product and we talk about project, because like in automotive or in other sectors, or in consumer electronics, when now we define to launch a new project, there is a clear positioning, there is a clear marketing strategy, and there is a clear selling point to the market.
In fact, we defined five major projects, two for Natuzzi Italia and three for Natuzzi Edition, which I'm sure Daniele will comment later, which set the tone not just for one collection, but for multiple collections. We also had to develop tools. Merchandising is a very complex matter, because you have to imagine that our collection can be customized in many dimensions: size, versatility, fabrics, colors, and every solution targets a specific segment of the market. When we define what is the ideal merchandising for a store, it's very complex as a size that typically was taking four, five, six weeks for an individual store. Having 660 stores, you can imagine this was becoming a bottleneck, as we want to suggest this to the market. We don't let the individual partner decide it.
We now completed an automation process where processes that were possible to complete only in weeks, they're now completed in hours, where our system produces immediately a diagnostic of what needs to be changed in terms of layout and suggests a solution, which then are still refined by us. I can't detail most of these, but the key message is the company is bridging the gap from a vision to operation. It decided to become a retailer, now is becoming a retailer. In saying that, unless Pasquale has an additional comment, I will ask Daniele to show the new way, for instance, of interpreting marketing, which is not any longer just brand marketing, because luckily, as you know, Natuzzi is the most renewed brand in the U.S., in Europe, in China. It is less about brand awareness, it is more to drive traffic in the store.
Again, here we did significant advancement in making it measurable and predictable. I will ask Daniele to share a pillar of that.
Daniele Tranchini (Chief Marketing and Communication Officer)
Thank you, Antonio. I don't know if I can share my screen just for a few minutes.
Antonio Achille (CEO and Executive Director)
Yeah, you should. If you go. Maybe Kevin, you can help, but
Operator (participant)
You should be able to hover your mouse over the platform, and there should be a share screen button on the bottom.
Daniele Tranchini (Chief Marketing and Communication Officer)
Yep. [Foreign language]
While I try to, in fact, while I try to get the technology to assist me, let me start by commenting some of the words that somehow I don't seem to be able to.
Antonio Achille (CEO and Executive Director)
[Foreign language]. Sorry, I'm switching. I'm doing a bit of remote IT support. [Foreign language].
Daniele Tranchini (Chief Marketing and Communication Officer)
Yes.
Antonio Achille (CEO and Executive Director)
[Foreign language]
Daniele Tranchini (Chief Marketing and Communication Officer)
Yes, I have.
[Foreign language]
Antonio Achille (CEO and Executive Director)
I apologize. It says you're sharing your screen now. I just don't see anything being shared.
Daniele Tranchini (Chief Marketing and Communication Officer)
Sorry?
Antonio Achille (CEO and Executive Director)
[Foreign language]
Daniele Tranchini (Chief Marketing and Communication Officer)
I'll somehow my, let's see, one last try.
Antonio Achille (CEO and Executive Director)
By the way, Pasquale is in my point, so there is a bit of additional complexity for not being in the quarter.
Daniele Tranchini (Chief Marketing and Communication Officer)
Okay. Somehow it does not allow me to do what I'm trying to do, but never mind. I will.
Operator (participant)
It may be a firewall issue, sir. I do apologize. I'm not sure.
Daniele Tranchini (Chief Marketing and Communication Officer)
Yeah, that's all right. Don't worry.
Antonio Achille (CEO and Executive Director)
Let me just give you a few, let me give you a few comments to reinforce what Antonio was talking about just now. The challenge that I've taken on as.
Pasquale Natuzzi (Founder and Executive Chairman)
Daniele, while you are unable to show the image of the new collection that we launched together with the marketing, let me explain a little bit, okay, the journey that the company is doing in terms of retailer. Let's say in our history, we have made always a wonderful product, and the consumer loves Natuzzi products, no question about. Because of that, a lot of entrepreneurs in China, in America, in the United Kingdom, in Spain, everywhere, they decided to open a Natuzzi store and show the brand and show the product. Obviously, that doesn't mean to manage a retailer, because each individual entrepreneur in each individual country, they were managing the brand in their way, okay?
We have been grateful to them for believing and trusting in us. We realize that we need to control our brands. That is why we have been working on analytics in order to, first of all, clusterize the store. Where do we have the store? How many stores have we? Where are they located? Are they appropriately located? Yes or not? We succeed also to connect with our store in order to control the store traffic, in order to control also the conversion rate. The customer gets in the store. Okay, are we able to convert the visit and sell?
Antonio Achille (CEO and Executive Director)
Pasquale, Pasquale [Foreign language]
Operator (participant)
You may have frozen. Yeah, there we go. It is just a connectivity issue.
Antonio Achille (CEO and Executive Director)
Okay, okay. Guys, I think this was commenting what pretty much we discussed. Definitely, Pasquale will be able to. [Foreign language]
[Foreign language] Kevin, again, maybe you want to do a round for Q&A for this question.
Operator (participant)
Will do. If anyone would like to ask a question at this time, please use the ask a question feature on your screen to be placed into question queue. Once again, if you'd like to ask a question at this time, please use the ask a question feature on your screen. Our first question is coming from George Melas-Kyriazi from MKH Management. Your line is now live. George, please proceed. Hello, George. I'm at your phone. Corey Pinkston, your line is now live.
Pasquale Natuzzi (Founder and Executive Chairman)
Antonio, do you hear me now?
Antonio Achille (CEO and Executive Director)
[Foreign language]
[Foreign language]
Pasquale Natuzzi (Founder and Executive Chairman)
I have been disconnected for a little while, I mean. Yes. As you know, I'm in America. I'm in America, but I'm surprised. I must be more connected than when I'm in Italy. Anyway. Okay, go ahead then.
Operator (participant)
Corey Pinkston, your line is live.
Good afternoon, gentlemen. Can you hear me?
Antonio Achille (CEO and Executive Director)
We do.
Pasquale Natuzzi (Founder and Executive Chairman)
Yes.
Hi, great. Congratulations on navigating the environment we're in, especially with the manufacturing movements that you made for Editions to get it back into Europe and all the rest and all the development of the brand and, as you said, project versus product development in the company, which probably is as critical today as it has ever been in light of the current environment.
One question, I missed the very beginning of your comments, Antonio, but as it relates to the tariffs, I know we're speculating as to how long, how they're going to be, what they're going to be, etc. Based on kind of, as you look at the current market, if we assume that there are going to be some kind of increased tariffs in place, and maybe we can speculate on that, as it relates to either pricing of the product to the customer or margin impact, is there any ability to kind of give us some thoughts as to how to think about that?
I do not, we are not as close to the market as you are, but when Natuzzi is in America, obviously, we can look at the comps that are out there, whether it is RH or others, but you are a very different, I will say, brand and approach to the market. As we think about the fact of the consumer being in very different categories, whether it is a higher-end consumer, medium, kind of higher, medium, can you just give us a little bit of idea as to what you are seeing in the market now, obviously, without trying to give us forecasts?
Antonio Achille (CEO and Executive Director)
Yeah. No, and thank you for being so respectful, Corey, in posing your question. I would compose the answer maybe in three parts. How we plan to react and how we already actually reacted.
What we expect this could be the impact in terms of large distributor and consumer short term, but also, which is the third part, how this position of Natuzzi in light of the large competitors in the U.S. that you didn't mention explicitly, but we know which they are, no? Is Restoration Hardware, is Crate and Barrel, Arhaus, and other companies. How we are reacting, definitely this was not something we would have hoped for, that's for sure. I mean, we were actually expecting the opposite, at least from the U.S., there would have been some signal of stability. Having said that, our platform, per se, is more equipped to navigate volatility because we are not depending on third party. We have our own production. I mentioned, we have several platforms because we have Italy, which is definitely the place we reproduce our high-end branded collection.
We operate also facilities across Europe in Romania. In Romania, just to tell you, we have 1 million sq ft surface, so it's huge, definitely scalable. We have a production, as I mentioned before, in China. We have a production predominantly in outsourcing in Vietnam, and we have production in Brazil and Salvador de Bahia. This legacy, as you know, is a heavy legacy when you look in our P&L. In a phase like this, it gives us flexibility to reorient production where it makes sense. I made the example before of Natuzzi Edition for North America being moved to Europe before. There are other options we are currently considering. This is from an industrial, let's say, footprint.
In terms of protecting our marginality, of course, if we are, as you know, there has been a 90-day procrastination, but even in those 90 days, there has been a 10% applied. Of course, we had to protect our margin in this period. We had discussions with our partner to do a fair sharing of these to protect our marginality, even for the orders that were taken before the tariff entered in place. We have been very careful in protecting our marginality with something which does not depend on us. It is a very similar situation like in 2021 when we had a spike in freight, and we had to protect ourselves by introducing, in a very transparent manner, freight surcharge, which is not caused by our avidity, but is simply a consequence of decisions taken somewhere else. This is how we are acting.
Long story short, we have multiple production flights to provide flexibility. We are protecting the marginality, introducing the equivalent of freight surcharge, let's call it duty-free surcharge, to protect the sales that go to North America. Of course, the other geographies, they have not been impacted. What we see? We see that this is creating uncertainty, and uncertainty does not help the business. We are definitely seeing a more selective approach from the large distributors and consumers after all this story started. Also because I believe the level of unpredictability of the setting is what is preventing from doing business. You have to imagine yourself being a large distributor in the U.S. and not knowing what's going to happen to China, to Vietnam, to Europe in terms of tariffs. They can have a swing from 0-135.
In absence of clarity, you, of course, do not take a huge investment decision. How does this position Natuzzi versus the competitor? Having said that, we do not see this as a positive for the industry. I mean, we do not, let's say, celebrate when other companies have issues. Clearly, if it is a company that has been entirely set up to source a product from Far East, being China, or, as typically happens lately, Vietnam, this might be a very, very strong swing factor for them because recreating a supply chain in our sector does not take days. If the tariff after these 90 days are confirmed, I honestly would not be in there.
I mean, my seat and our seat is not easy, but I would not like to be in their seat because what do you do if overnight you have the sourcing where you source 85% of your product, they have a duty of 120% or 46%? I think this would be, of course, a strong discontinuity for the market. In this context, Natuzzi might have some advantage from a competitive standpoint. Cory, did this relatively long and unstructured answer address your short and effective question or not?
No, thank you very much. It really does. Part of the thesis that shareholders are being a little bit smaller than the competition, being in a different segment than the competition to a certain extent as we look at it, which is you are across the board. I think the flexibility you have on the supply chain gives us a lot of comfort. Hopefully, as you said, we get to some type of resolution sooner rather than later. Thank you very much, Antonio.
If any of you who sit in the U.S. can help, we would be very grateful to each of you. Next up.
Operator (participant)
It appears there are no further questions at this time, but if you do want to ask a question, please use the ask a question feature on your screen.
Antonio Achille (CEO and Executive Director)
Kevin, in transparency, I received some questions by email, which is a bit atypical because I do not know, Piero, if you do receive questions by email.
Piero Direnzo (Head of Investor Relations)
Just received a list of requests from a guy who is not in the position to participate in the call.
Antonio Achille (CEO and Executive Director)
This gentleman, Garrett Larson, is not in the call. We can address it offline. Any other questions?
Operator (participant)
It appears there are no further questions at this time.
Antonio Achille (CEO and Executive Director)
Pasquale, it looks like your line has been stabilized. [Foreign language]
Pasquale Natuzzi (Founder and Executive Chairman)
Okay, again, yes. Today, if we should look at the positive side of our company today, is that we are in the position to analyze and make diagnosis why the store in Sarasota is making money, what they make special, why the store in the U.K. probably is not making money. What's the reason? It's low traffic. It's conventionally the problem. The issue is the ticket, which product are we selling? Which product are we not selling?
Today, we are in the position, in a very fast way, to do diagnosis on each model everywhere in the world, each store in the world we have. Basically, it appears the Wi-Fi froze. [Foreign language] Allora. I'm connected again, Antonio, because I don't know.
Antonio Achille (CEO and Executive Director)
You are? You are? You can give it another try. I hope this time it's going to be a bit more stable.
Pasquale Natuzzi (Founder and Executive Chairman)
No, I'm sorry because communication is not really the good one that should be.
Anyway, I was saying that while we are in the position with our system to analyze and make diagnosis on the performance of each individual store, that allows us to define an action plan through changing products that are not performing with a new product that could perform based on our know-how, knowledge, and also supported with the marketing. That's what we have been doing in 2024, preparing. How can we? Because we have the store. We have a store in China. We have a store in America. We have a store in Europe. We have a store in the Middle East. We have a store everywhere. We need to increase the sales.
In order to do that, we feel very confident that with the new collection that we developed in 2024, whatever we have done already, the launch of the new collection, supported by really effective and very good marketing support, are performing very well. That's our challenge this year, just to improve consumer confidence in each geography, in each store, and we have all the tools to do that. I mean, that's what I can say, that I'm confident that despite the geopolitical situation, production-wise, we are very well, let's say, organized because of the factory in Brazil, the factory in Romania, the factory in Italy, the factory in China, the factory also in Vietnam. I mean, even regarding the duty, the tariff doesn't concern us really very much.
Our challenge is primarily how we should improve the sales in each individual store and geography. We have the new collection that we've developed for Natuzzi Italia, but also for Natuzzi Edition. We have all the marketing plan. We've made a huge investment in order to support geography and the individual store or group of a store, like we did in Florida, for example. We have been doing launching a conformist collection in Florida, but also in Georgia and also in Texas. I mean, we are getting the traffic is increasing, absolutely. We are getting a lot of contact. That's what I can say regarding the marketing department and the product development market company has been doing in order to overcome this situation that no question about is not an easy situation. We see also other peers how they are performing. That's the reality.
Antonio Achille (CEO and Executive Director)
Thank you, Pasquale. This time, line support this speech. Thank you for closing in a very positive and optimistic way. It is an optimism that comes from hard work, not just from hope. Kevin, I believe unless there are questions, we are complete for the section.
Operator (participant)
We do have one question from George Melas-Kyriazi. Okay. I am going to join him right through. Okay, George, your line is now live. George, please unmute your phone. There you go. We got you, my friend. There you go.
George Melas-Kyriazi (President and Founder)
Great. Great. It is actually quite interesting. I think Pasquale answered a lot of the questions that I had. I appreciate that, Pasquale. It was about the tools, the tools and the system to really in that transition into retail. I think you mentioned, Pasquale, that you have sort of all the tools.
I just want to go over that one more time. Are there certain things that you feel are missing that you still need to add to your capability, primarily in terms of system, in order to? The second question is, with this analytical ability to really look at products across so many stores, what have you learned so far? What is it that is it that how does that impact the way you think about the collection?
Pasquale Natuzzi (Founder and Executive Chairman)
Okay. Regarding the tools that we have today, we believe we have done really something which we should be proud of because to be based in Italy and manage a store in America and in China, in South America and in Mexico or in all Europe, Middle East, and Africa, I mean, has been not an easy exercise.
Today, we are in the position to analyze and do diagnosis why we are not performing well or what we need to perform better in terms of probably we need to do training to the people because the conversion rate is very low. We know that our human resource management will provide for training, for example, for the people in the store. If there are some products because we have a living room, a different style and function in our store. We have a dining. We have a bedding. I mean, our product proposition is to decorate the home. We have a different product in our store. We need to understand which product is performing and which one is not performing and what we do. How fast can we replace and improve the merchandising in the store?
That's very important in order to monitor the sales by square foot. It's very important because the lease, the people, the cost of the store is very high. We need really to be careful and act very fast in order to improve the sales by square foot. That's one of the challenges. Product-wise, we believe that based on our 66 years' experience and the people that we have in our company because we have been based always in the same territory. We haven't changed. In our industry, companies move from one country to another country, from one region to another region. They never put together the management that should be able really to manage the brand in the appropriate way. Regarding that, we are very proud because we have people in Apulia working with us, very talented people. We have the people. We have the production.
We have the store everywhere in the world. We need to improve how to manage and how to improve the sales in our store. We created the tools. We have the product. We have the collection. We have the marketing. We are confident despite whatever will happen in the world because we do not know. I mean, the war in Ukraine, what will happen? The war in the Middle East, what will happen? Who knows? I mean, there are uncertainties in all way around. Even though we are confident, motivated, and we work very hard in order to overcome this challenging period, I mean, that's what I can say.
George Melas-Kyriazi (President and Founder)
Great. I appreciate that very much. Maybe a question for Antonio. It's my last question. Do you sort of have a line of sight to profitability, what it takes to get to profitability?
Of course, I think the real big factor is what Pasquale was talking about, increasing revenue and increasing revenue per store. Maybe can you talk a little bit about that and maybe also about is there any expansion in the U.S., any retail expansion in the U.S. in 2025 or 2026 that you're looking at?
Pasquale Natuzzi (Founder and Executive Chairman)
Our priority now is to improve our organic growth. We have the store. We are committed to make the store more profitable. That will be our today and tomorrow challenge. Antonio, don't you say anything? You have muted, Antonio.
Antonio Achille (CEO and Executive Director)
Yeah, yeah. I agree, of course, with Pasquale because of the decision I was taking in the symphony. I think given the current market and given how much headroom we have, we believe that organic growth is a reasonable way for at least the remaining 2025.
We opened in the U.S., as you know, five new Natuzzi Edition, Natuzzi Italia store over the last 12 months. Each of them is a baby that now needs to be cured and let grow in the proper way. On the other question, George, in reality, if you look at the company, it has invested a lot in this journey, more than EUR 1 billion, because if you look over the last 15 years, the last years were from, let's say, the only years from a reported year where we had a positive EBITDA to where 2021 and 2022. In reflecting on what could be a threshold for with the current model to be at break-even is clearly much, much lower than it used to be. We saw that in 2019, with EUR 390 million sales, the company lost EUR 22 million.
I believe now, and Carlo can correct me if I'm not right, I've not done sophisticated modeling, but I believe if we're in the range of EUR 340 million, we are profitable. And with a bit more than that, we definitely produce positive cash flow. I think the level at which the company can be break-even has been seriously reduced if we keep protecting our marginality. If we go back to the revenue the company was able, and I believe is still able, to express with 660 stores and 1,400 galleries, there should be the approval of the equation we have been hardly working on. There should be translating profitability.
George Melas-Kyriazi (President and Founder)
Thank you.
Antonio Achille (CEO and Executive Director)
My pleasure, George. Thank you for your continuous trust in our company.
Operator (participant)
Thank you, George. Antonio, it appears there are no further questions at this time.
Antonio Achille (CEO and Executive Director)
Okay.
If this is, let's say, the last question, I take the opportunity to thank Pasquale, Daniele, Carlo, and Piero for being with us today and supporting the conversation. I particularly thank every one of you who has been joining this conversation. The message I would like to convey is that, of course, this is not the easiest time for a brand retail company, but we are very convinced on what we are doing. We believe we are building a model that can be delivering results. I welcome, as typically happens, also follow-up questions. I'm sure that between myself, Piero, and Carlo we will be able to address them even beyond this conference call. Thank you so much, and wish you a great end of the week. If you happen to be around the point, please stop at our building.
There will be a great opportunity to interact with Pasquale, with our team, and to see our collection. This year, I stayed in a quarter to be focused on a few things that need to be closed, but there will be definitely a lot of colleagues that can be sharing with you the excitement of the new collection in a point.
Pasquale Natuzzi (Founder and Executive Chairman)
I extend and I confirm the invitation. I would be pleased to have any one of you to visit us here. Thank you. Thank you so much. Kevin, you can close. Thank you.
Antonio Achille (CEO and Executive Director)
Thank you very much.
Operator (participant)
Thank you for today's webcast. Let me disconnect the line at this time and have a wonderful day. We thank you for your participation today, everyone.