nVent Electric - Q3 2023
October 27, 2023
Transcript
Operator (participant)
Hello, and welcome to the nVent Electric third quarter 2023 earnings call. All participants will be in listen-only mode. Should you need assistance, please signal a conference specialist by pressing the star key, followed by zero. After today's presentation, there will be an opportunity to ask questions. To ask a question, you may press star, then one on your touchtone phone. To withdraw your question, please press star, then two. Please note, today's event is being recorded. I would now like to turn the call over to Tony Riter, Vice President of Investor Relations. Please go ahead, sir.
Tony Riter (VP of Investor Relations)
Thank you, and welcome to nVent's third quarter 2023 earnings call. On the call with me are Beth Wozniak, our Chair and Chief Executive Officer, and Sara Zawoyski, our Chief Financial Officer. Today, we'll provide details on our third quarter performance, provide an outlook for the fourth quarter, and an update to our full year 2023 outlook. Before we begin, let me remind you that any statements made about the company's anticipated financial results are forward-looking statements, subject to future risks and uncertainties, such as the risks outlined in today's press release and nVent's filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Forward-looking statements are made as of today, and the company undertakes no obligation to update publicly such statements to reflect subsequent events or circumstances. Actual results could differ materially from anticipated results.
Today's webcast is accompanied by a presentation, which you can find in the investors section of nVent's website. References to non-GAAP financials are reconciled in the appendix of the presentation. We'll have time for questions after our prepared remarks. With that, please turn to slide three, and I'll now turn the call over to Beth.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Thank you, Tony, and good morning, everyone. It's great to be with you today to share our record third quarter results. I'm very pleased with our execution in the quarter. We had exceptionally strong income growth, gross expansion, and robust free cash flow. We continued to execute on our strategy, focused on high-growth verticals, new products, acquisitions, and geographic expansion. We believe we are well-positioned with the Electrification of Everything. In the third quarter, we had record sales up 15% with the addition of ECM and TEXA Industries. Adjusted EPS was up an impressive 27%. The acquisitions performed well and are great additions to nVent. Overall, we are very pleased with our Q3 performance. We had strong execution despite a mixed environment, which I will comment on shortly. Now on to slide four. For a summary of our third quarter performance.
Organic sales in the quarter were up slightly on top of 20% a year ago. We continued to see channel inventory adjustments, resulting in lower than expected organic sales. Organic orders were positive in the quarter, growing low single digits. Segment income was up 40% year-over-year, and return on sales up an impressive 420 basis points. Adjusted EPS grew 27% on top of 25% a year ago, and we generated $136 million of free cash flow, up 8%. Let me touch on a few highlights for the quarter. New products contributed approximately 2 points to sales growth, and we are well ahead of our goal of launching over 50 new products for the year. Turning to acquisitions, we're excited to have the ECM and TEXA team as part of nVent.
These acquisitions have strong product portfolios, which we believe further position us with the Electrification of Everything in high-growth verticals globally. In Q3, they added 14 points to sales and delivered better than expected income. With ECM, we are executing on our plan to globalize its portfolio. In particular, we are working on the certifications to expand the ILSCO power connection offering for Europe and Asia Pacific. We are making progress with our distribution partners to expand coverage. In addition, we are working on pulling our nVent products through some of the ECM channels. With TEXA, we are executing on our plan to position its industrial cooling portfolio alongside our Enclosures through our European distribution channels. Similarly, we are executing on the product roadmaps to expand the portfolio to North America. We believe there is significant potential for global growth and expansion with both acquisitions starting next year.
I would also like to share a couple of awards that we recently received. nVent was named as one of Fortune's Best Workplaces in Manufacturing and Production. We were also named as one of Newsweek's America's Greenest Companies. Finally, we were awarded the IMARK Supplier of the Year for ILSCO, part of ECM, which highlights the strength of that product portfolio. Looking at our vertical performance in the quarter. Overall, we saw a mixed environment. Organic sales were led by industrial and commercial resi, each growing low single digits in the quarter. While industrial is growing, the rate of growth is slowing. In commercial, we saw pockets of growth. Infrastructure declined low single digits, largely in Electrical & Fastening Solutions, due to customers and channel partners adjusting their inventories as our supply chain improved. Data Solutions continued to grow double-digits.
We're making good progress on expanding our footprint and capacity to meet growing demand for liquid cooling, driven by the acceleration of AI. We remain confident in the growth of the infrastructure vertical, with the Electrification of Everything and legislative funding expected to ramp in 2024. Finally, energy was flat in the quarter, but with the energy transition, we are seeing positive order trends. Turning to organic sales by geography, we continued to see growth led by North America, up low single digits. Europe declined low single digits, primarily due to our wind down in Russia, and Asia Pacific declined primarily due to China. Looking ahead, we are updating our sales expectations and raising our full year adjusted EPS guidance. This reflects our view on a continued mixed environment. Importantly, it also reflects our confidence in our ability to execute.
Be it our acquisitions, new products, pricing, productivity, and cash, we believe are all strengths for us. We expect electrification, sustainability, and digitalization to continue to drive demand. Specifically, we expect strength in infrastructure, in Data Solutions, in industrial, with the trends of automation and onshoring, and in energy with the energy transition. We continue to expect the commercial resi verticals to have pockets of strength. Overall, I'm very proud of our nVent teams and our execution. I will now turn the call over to Sara for some detail on our third quarter results and our updated outlook for 2023. Sara, please go ahead.
Sara Zawoyski (EVP and CFO)
Thank you, Beth. We had a solid quarter with robust margin expansion and free cash flow. Let's turn to slide five to review our third quarter results. Sales of $859 million were up 15% relative to last year. Organically, sales were up slightly, with price contributing 4 points to growth and volumes down 3 points. Acquisitions added a meaningful $104 million in sales or 14 points to growth. Third quarter segment income was $202 million, up 40%. Return on sales was an impressive 23.5%, up 420 basis points year-over-year. Our strong performance was driven by continued productivity improvements and accretive return on sales from the ECM acquisition. In addition, price more than offset the impact from inflation of just over $20 million.
Q3 adjusted EPS was $0.84, up 27% and above the high end of the guidance range. This included a better than expected $0.08 contribution from the ECM acquisition. We generated robust free cash flow in the quarter of $136 million, up 8%. This included higher CapEx investments for growth and capacity. Now, please turn to slide six for a discussion of our third quarter segment performance. Starting with Enclosures, sales of $413 million increased 6%. The TEXA acquisition contributed 1.5 points to sales. Organically, sales were up 4%, with solid price and volumes slightly down. Commercial resi was up low double-digits with strength in North America. Infrastructure and industrial were each up, with continued strength in Data Solutions and positive growth in industrial automation.
Geographically, North America led, up mid-single digits, while Europe was flat and China was down. Enclosures third quarter segment income was $89 million, up 24%. Return on sales of 21.7% increased 320 basis points year-over-year, driven by price cost and productivity. This includes our increased investments in our Data Solutions business and expects this to ramp in Q4 and into 2024. Moving to Electrical & Fastening, sales of $302 million increased 45%. The ECM acquisition contributed 47 points to sales growth, further scaling our highest margin segment. Organic growth declined 4%, mainly driven by infrastructure that stemmed from channel and customer inventory reductions. This was partially offset by low single-digit organic growth in commercial resi, which has grown each quarter this year.
Geographically, sales growth declined low single digits in North America and mid single digits in Europe. Notably, orders were up low single digits. Electrical & Fastening segment income was $98 million, up 61%. Return on sales was a notable 32.3%, up 320 basis points relative to last year on solid price cost, favorable mix, and productivity. Turning to Thermal Management, sales of $144 million were down 3% organically. Price contributed 3 points to growth, while volumes were negative. The decline was driven by commercial resi, down low double-digits, partially offset by energy. Industrial MRO demand remained solid. Geographically, North America was up low single digits. China grew double-digits, while Europe declined, including our wind down in Russia. Notably, orders were up mid-teens, driven by energy transition projects, and backlog grew year over year and sequentially.
Thermal Management segment income of $35 million was down 3%. Return on sales of 24.2% was flat year-over-year due to lower volumes and mix. On slide seven, titled Balance Sheet and Cash Flow, we ended the quarter with $113 million of cash on hand and $600 million available on our revolver. We believe our healthy balance sheet provides us with ample capacity to invest in the business and execute on our growth strategy. As you can see on the slide, we have invested nearly $50 million in CapEx year-to-date, up nearly 60% versus a year ago. Turning to slide eight, where we outline our capital allocation priorities.
We believe our robust balance sheet and cash generation puts us in a strong position to continue to invest in growth, return cash to shareholders, and deliver great returns. We had a strong free cash flow in the quarter and year-to-date, growing 46% compared to a year ago. We exited Q3 with a net debt to adjusted EBITDA ratio of 2.4x, back within our targeted range of 2-2.5 times, well ahead of our expectations after the ECM acquisition. This is a testament to our strong cash flow generation and ECM performance. Year-to-date, we have returned $103 million to shareholders, including dividends and share repurchases. Moving to slide nine for our updated full-year outlook. We are updating our reported and organic sales forecast to reflect a mixed environment and expected channel inventory adjustment.
Reported sales growth is now expected to be in the range of 12%-13%, versus our prior guidance of 13%-15%. This reflects full-year organic growth of 3%-4%, versus our prior guidance of 4%-6%. We continue to expect acquisitions to contribute approximately 9 points to sales growth. We are raising our adjusted EPS guidance to a range of $3.01-$3.03, up 25%-26%, versus our prior guidance of $2.85-$2.91. This new guidance reflects our year-to-date performance, continued strong execution, and better acquisition performance. We now expect acquisitions to contribute approximately $0.15 to adjusted EPS, versus our previous expectation of $0.08-$0.10.
Looking at our fourth quarter outlook on slide 10, we expect reported sales to grow 15%-17%, with acquisitions contributing approximately 13 points to sales. Organic sales are expected to be up 1%-3%. We expect adjusted EPS to be between $0.73 and $0.75, which at the midpoint, reflects 12% growth relative to last year. Wrapping up, we delivered another quarter of robust margin expansion and cash flow and are well positioned for another great year. This concludes my remarks, and I will now turn the call back over to Beth.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Thank you, Sara. Please turn to slide 11. At nVent, we are building a more sustainable and electrified world. The trends in electrification, digitalization, and sustainability are driving secular demand for our products and solutions. I'm confident about the future, given the macro trends and our strategy, with our focus on high-growth verticals, new products, and acquisitions. Starting with macro trends, we believe the $1.3 trillion in U.S. and European legislative funding for infrastructure has the potential to add between $250 million-$500 million in nVent sales over the next five-plus years. Looking at the trend of digitalization, artificial intelligence is driving demand for our liquid cooling solutions, leading us to increase investments to expand our product portfolio and capacity to drive future growth. Looking at sustainability, we are seeing the energy transition gain traction.
Notably, our third quarter project orders were up double-digits in our Thermal Management segment. Next is our focus on high-growth verticals and new products. As we shared at our Investor Day, more than 60% of our sales are exposed to secular trends. Some of the high-growth verticals we are focused on include industrial automation, data solutions, power utilities, renewables, and the energy transition. For example, we expect our Data Solutions business to continue to grow double-digits and reach over $500 million in sales next year. By the way, we look forward to hosting investors at the Supercompute Trade Show in Denver next month, where we will showcase our innovative portfolio, including our liquid cooling solutions. Turning to new products, we have seen significant growth. We have improved our new product introduction process, increasing velocity and time to revenue.
Year-to-date, new products have contributed 3 points to sales growth, and we have launched 64 new products, way ahead of our expectations. Lastly, on acquisitions, we play in a highly fragmented $75 billion space. We see tremendous opportunities to continue to grow and expand with our acquisition framework. Recall, we look for differentiated product portfolios in high-growth verticals that we can invest in and scale to strengthen our position with the Electrification of Everything. This year, we expect the ECM and TEXA acquisitions to add approximately 9 points to sales. We have a strong track record of deals, exceeding our weighted average cost of capital in two to three years. In summary, we expect to continue to execute on value-creating deals with our active funnel and strong balance sheet.... We are excited about the Electrification of Everything.
Wrapping up on slide 12, we had a strong quarter with record sales and adjusted EPS. We expect 2023 to be another year of double-digit sales and adjusted EPS growth. While the current environment is mixed, our execution has been strong. We are driving growth with new products. We are executing well on acquisitions. We are expanding margins with price and productivity, and we are delivering robust cash flow. We are within our target leverage ratio in less than two quarters after completing our largest acquisition ever. The ECM and TEXA acquisitions have been meaningful additions to nVent and are performing well. We are excited about the growth and scale of our combined portfolios. I'm very proud of how well our team is performing. Looking ahead to 2024, we believe we are well positioned with the electrification, sustainability, and digitalization trends.
We believe the legislative funding and investments in infrastructure will start to flow. We expect to see the continued acceleration of artificial intelligence and the energy transition, and we expect the sales synergies from our acquisitions to begin to layer in. We are excited for our future. Our future is bright. With that, I will now turn the call over to the operator to start Q&A.
Operator (participant)
Yes, thank you. At this time, we will begin the question and answer session. To ask a question, you may press star, then one on your touch-tone phone. If you are using a speakerphone, please pick up your handset before pressing the keys. To withdraw your question, please press star, then two. At this time, we will pause momentarily to assemble the roster. Today's first question comes from Jeff Sprague with Vertical Research.
Jeff Sprague (Founder and Managing Partner)
Thank you. Good morning to everybody as well.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Good morning.
Jeff Sprague (Founder and Managing Partner)
Good morning. Hey, could we just kind of touch on the channels a little bit here, a little bit more detail than you gave on the call? So, you know, kind of a year into kind of channel inventory liquidations at this point, right? And, just kind of wonder your confidence in kind of parsing what actually is normalization versus maybe just kind of eroding fundamentals underneath the surface, you know, kind of deteriorating here as we go.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Yeah, I think, you know, as we started to see some of this activity taking place earlier in the year as supply chains improved, and that continued, and we expected it to continue in Q3. And I would say some of our channel partners have done that, and some are still continuing. So it's somewhat mixed. And I think, you know, early on, we saw some of the slowness in commercial resi, and so we saw some of that activity taking place there. Then, you know, we've started to see industrial slowing. You know, I would say sell-through has been slowing as well, but I think it is some end markets have, you know, are choppy, so we're seeing some slowness there, but then we also see some positives.
You know, in some of the, we've seen commercial in some places be very positive. Our nVent CADDY portfolio has seen some nice growth over the last several quarters. So I think it's really mixed, Jeff, in what we're seeing. And I do think with supply chains improving, that's been one of the big drivers of the adjustments.
Jeff Sprague (Founder and Managing Partner)
You did note orders were positive in EFS and Thermal. How did they perform in Enclosures, and is there, you know, is there a particular additional inventory issue that you're working through there?
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Yes. On the Enclosure side, you know, it's, they were down, and some of that is what we saw in industrial slowing. But again, what's interesting there, infrastructure Data Solutions was very strong. So, some of it is inventory adjustments, and some of it is some industrial areas starting to slow.
Jeff Sprague (Founder and Managing Partner)
Maybe just last one, just your confidence on the continued ability to kind of price in a, you know, kind of, we'll just call it flat volume environment?
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Well, I think you've seen every quarter that we've had strong price, although we said it was going to slow as we progressed through the year, just because of how we started to lap some of our price increases. We're continuing to do some price increases where we think that makes sense. For example, we've had some price increases in Europe, and I think as we look into next year, we still expect that, that we will be positive when it comes to price.
Jeff Sprague (Founder and Managing Partner)
Great. Thank you.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. The next question comes from Nigel Coe with Wolfe Research.
Nigel Coe (Managing Director and Head of US Capital Goods Equity Research)
Thanks. Good morning, everyone.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Good morning.
Sara Zawoyski (EVP and CFO)
Good morning.
Nigel Coe (Managing Director and Head of US Capital Goods Equity Research)
So I'm going to start off with a question you're probably not going to answer, but I'd just appreciate your thinking about, you know, the 2024 environment. You know, we've got channel adjustments, you know, some maybe getting stronger, some weakening, but we're certainly, you know, quite deep into that process right now. So perhaps we've got some favorable comps coming up on the channel into 2024. But I'm more interested actually in this backlog build at TM, and, you know, obviously the data center, Data Solutions tailwind. How are you thinking about the growth setup for next year? I mean, are you confident? Obviously, you're investing in certain parts of the business, but what kind of environment are you planning for in 2024?
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Well, look, we're confident in 2024 being a solid growth year for us. And, you know, when we think about, as I was saying in some of my concluding remarks, first, you have some of this infrastructure spending starting to actually ramp in 2024, and we can see that because of some things that we're quoting on. So we know that that money will start to flow and have more impact into 2024. Second, we look at some of the order rates that we have in Data Solutions, which has given us the confidence, right, to make those significant investments and, you know, build out more capacity. So in that case, we've got good visibility, especially with some of the hyperscale and where we're involved with, you know, this AI, which is driving the demand for liquid cooling.
Third, when you take a look at our Thermal Management business, we see those orders increasing. So we talked about double-digit orders growth, and in particular, around that energy transition. And we've seen some nice wins, whether it's on renewables or carbon capture. So we're seeing, you know, funding going into that energy transition. So I think there's, you know, the channel inventory adjustments this, this year have been, you know, one of those things a little bit out of our control, but everything that we've been working on, new products, we will have more new products this year than we've had in the last couple, and that's always been a great driver for growth for us. And I just want to add, of course, we have the two acquisitions, and those sales synergies that we've been working on will start to begin in 2024.
All of that, I believe, sets us up for a solid growth year next year.
Sara Zawoyski (EVP and CFO)
And maybe-
Nigel Coe (Managing Director and Head of US Capital Goods Equity Research)
Great. Thanks, Beth.
Sara Zawoyski (EVP and CFO)
One other, one other thing, Nigel, just to add from a modeling standpoint, too. You know, this year, at an nVent level, the impact of our wind down of the Russia business was roughly a point of headwind on the top line. And while we will see a little bit of a rollover in that in Q1 and Thermal, it will have a negligible impact from a year-over-year perspective going into next year. So we won't have that headwind either.
Nigel Coe (Managing Director and Head of US Capital Goods Equity Research)
Great. Thanks, Sara. So obviously, 4Q, M&A are pretty, seeing some step down in margin. So I hope we get into that on the call, but I just wanted to dig into the M&A contribution of $0.15 for the year, because that's obviously a nice pickup. $0.08 in the quarter, I think it implies maybe $0.05 in the fourth quarter. You're pointing to some integration and investment spending in the back half of the year. Just wondering if maybe some of that's pushing out to the right. I guess the question is, what's driving the upside to the M&A appreciation?
Sara Zawoyski (EVP and CFO)
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a couple of things. You know, one, as we bring that ECM, you know, into the nVent fold here, I think the team is executing very well from a price-cost perspective. I also think that, they're executing well from an overall, you know, productivity and cost control measure. So, I think it's just, I think the other point I would make too, Nigel, is, is we also have some mixed benefit there. As you look at that business, if you remember, it's largely through distribution, but we also have OEM, and retail e-commerce. That distribution business is actually growing and growing nicely, so we're getting some positive, mixed contribution there as well.
But as we look in Q4, you know, from Q3, there's a couple of things to keep in mind is there. You have some normal seasonality in that business, very similar to the EFS business. And we will begin to ramp on the investment side, you know, to, you know, be in a good position for those sales synergies that, that Beth talked about. And that's going to take the form of some digital investments, sales and marketing, engineering investments, et cetera. And we're really excited about, you know, what that holds for us next year.
Nigel Coe (Managing Director and Head of US Capital Goods Equity Research)
Great, Job. Thank you.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. The next question comes from Dean Dray with RBC Capital Markets.
Deane Dray (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)
Thank you. Good morning, everyone.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Good morning.
Sara Zawoyski (EVP and CFO)
Good morning.
Deane Dray (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)
Hey, would like to talk a bit here about Data Solutions investment that you're making. You talked about it last quarter. Was hoping you could size for us. You know, I think you've told us the CapEx, but how much capacity are you adding in liquid cooling, and when does that come online? We'll probably hear more about this at the Supercompute, but just give us a sense of your customer concentration. It looks like all the hyperscale guys are the ones who've moved the fastest into this space. You know, how broadly do you think the customer base extends, in what time frame?
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Okay. So, you know, this has been... We've been adding capacity, first opening a new plant in Mexico, so we could expand capacity within our Minnesota campus, if you will, for more liquid cooling. And then we realized that wasn't enough, so we're moving distribution out of that location to a new center to expand more capacity. And I think, you know, we're going to double our capacity. You know, maybe it's more than that, but I mean, that's how we're thinking about it when we look at the liquid cooling. And a couple of things that we've been doing.
In addition to the hyperscale accounts, we've also been creating some more standard offerings that we can take through some of our distribution channels, as well as serve, say, the maybe enterprise accounts, where they're looking for, maybe not a custom solution, but for something ready to go and off the shelf. These are some of the products we'll actually have on display at the Supercompute Trade Show. So we can give a, you know, we can overview for those in attendance, just all the different breadth of our capability there. So, you know, we've often talked about it takes a couple of years to work with an account to get these systems certified. We've been doing that for several years now, so we believe these new customers are starting to come online.
That's also part of what's accelerating our growth into next year. And we just see a long runway here that, you know, liquid cooling, just because of the types of chips that are being used and even some of the energy efficiency play there, that that will be the future.
Deane Dray (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)
That's fabulous. Let me go back to a couple points that Nigel was asking about on ECM. Can you separate for us how much of the cost synergies you've captured so far? And it sounds like most of the revenue synergies are still in front, that certification to take the products into Europe and Asia. That still happens, but it sounds like some of these Enclosures business might be selling some of ECM as well. Maybe that time frame is earlier. So where do you stand on cost synergies and time frame for revenue?
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Well, I'll start with the cost synergies. So I would say, Dean, we're off to a great start from a cost synergy standpoint. If you recall, we estimated roughly $10 million-$15 million by year three, and some of that execution in the quarter is really a faster than expected realization of some of those cost synergies. Whether it's looking at some of our, you know, freight, parcel rates, combining kind of the overall insurance programs, I think the team's doing a nice job of finding those synergies early. And so we're well on track, you know, to achieve that $10 million-$15 million of cost synergies.
I think the other thing I would just point out, too, you know, we talked about this, and it shows up really in our, in our cash flow numbers, is we are also on track in seeing the cash tax synergies as well, of roughly $6 million-$8 million, you know, per year, across that 10- to 15-year kind of amortization period. So, you know, the cost and the tax synergies, well on track.
On the revenue synergies, I would say they're still in front of us, but what we've been working on, you know, we said we're going to expand the ECM products through our distribution channels, and so we've been engaged in those discussions. I mentioned that, and I think we'll start to see that layer in as we go next year. Similarly, we've been looking at some of the unique channels that ECM had and what products from our portfolio can we bring through their channel. So again, those discussions are underway, and I think where we're trying to certify the product, you know, for global distribution, that takes a little bit longer because you've got to get those certifications, and there are some, you know, different modifications we need to make to the product.
I think going into 2024 is when we start to see those synergies start to layer in.
Deane Dray (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)
Thank you. See you in Denver.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Very good. Thanks, Dean.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. And the next question comes from Julian Mitchell with Barclays.
Julian Mitchell (Managing Director and U.S. Industrials Equity Research Analyst)
Thanks a lot. Maybe, just a margin question first off. So it looks like the fourth quarter guide, you're embedding, you know, I think sort of flattish revenue, sequentially. At sort of, you know, 860-ish or something. But the operating margin is down, you know, 250 basis points-300 basis points. So just wondered if that was roughly correct and, you know, understood you often have seasonally down margins in Q4 sequentially, but if there was any particular aspect, driving them this time, or it's just conservatism?
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
So if you recall, Julian, there's a seasonality to that Q3 to Q4 margin that has, you know, consistently played out historically. So when you think about it, some of it's just going to be the mix of the business, in terms of, you know, Enclosures in EFS, you know, versus Thermal. And I think the other piece I would point to is just the acceleration on the, investment front from an EPS perspective. So we talked about that in our prepared remarks. A big piece of that is going to be, you know, on the, Data Solutions investment side of things. So nothing in there, you know, beyond really that historical seasonal EPS, pattern as well.
I think the other thing, you know, I would point to just from an EPS perspective, it doesn't necessarily show up on the Enclosure side of the equation because that's overall accretive, is just going to be ECM. We do believe that ECM will have less of a contribution, still stronger than what we expected initially, but again, that's just that added seasonality element to it.
Julian Mitchell (Managing Director and U.S. Industrials Equity Research Analyst)
That's helpful. Thank you. And then just a second question around the top line. You know, should we assume that orders improvement in EFS translates into sales quickly, say, in Q4, you know, as sales growing again in EFS? And more broadly, you know, heard the comments around destocking. Are you seeing any kind of project delays in commercial or industrial, and then that's feeding through to, you know, distributors selling into those projects, starting to pull back on their orders to suppliers such as yourself?
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Well, maybe one area that I would point to is... I'll just give you an example. You know, ground rods are used in utilities and telecommunications and construction, et cetera. This was an area where we had really long lead times over the last couple of years, like months, and then we, you know, we're now in stock, and it's down to, like, weeks. And so what we saw there was that there was inventory that had been built up at our channel partners, and then there was inventory even at end customers. And so that's one of the impacts, you know, as I characterize it, that we saw for EFS occurring. Even though we know the future, with everything electrifying, this is a category that is going to continue to grow.
And when we've tried to understand where the inventory is at, we have, you know, we know in some accounts there are some end customers that perhaps they're waiting for other components beyond ground rods that we don't make, that have slowed some of those projects. That's one area, but that's just one example. But I would say, generally, it's just inventory adjustment is mainly what we're seeing. And go ahead, Sara.
Sara Zawoyski (EVP and CFO)
Yeah, and then just from a Q4 sales perspective, we do expect to see modest growth in EFS in Q4. So if you just take a step back and look at that organic growth of 1%-3%, we expect Enclosures to lead, expect, you know, modest growth in EFS, and then expect Thermal to continue to be down with some of those trends continuing on commercial resi, and that Russia impact. And just to characterize that a little bit, you know, that Russia impact, specifically on that Thermal Management business, is roughly 5 points in Q4.
Julian Mitchell (Managing Director and U.S. Industrials Equity Research Analyst)
Great. Thank you.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. The next question comes from Joe Ritchie with Goldman Sachs.
Joe Ritchie (VP and Senior Equity Analyst)
Hi, good morning, everyone.
Sara Zawoyski (EVP and CFO)
Morning.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Good morning.
Joe Ritchie (VP and Senior Equity Analyst)
Hey, just maybe can we just start on EFS margins? I know that you've got the acquisition going through there as well. As you kind of think about, you know, negative organic growth, you know, the EBITDA margin now north of 30%, north of 32%, how do we think about the trajectory of these margins from here? Fully recognizing that, I think that they're a step down expected in Q4.
Sara Zawoyski (EVP and CFO)
Yeah, I mean, I think here's what I would say is, one, I think that team has done an incredible job of managing that price cost equation. I think we're beginning to see that productivity ramp within the four walls, as we would have expected, kind of heading into the back half. I think the other piece that's really showing up in that Q3 number is the mix that I referred to in my prepared remarks. And we just had sort of an uneven, you know, mix of revenue, if you will, commensurate with what that typically looks like, and that's driving some of that 32+, you know, return on sales for that quarter.
But if we look just going ahead, you know, in Electrical & Fastening, and I would argue that this is cut across Enclosures as well, you know, we continue to see strong underlying margins, expansion opportunities. And it goes back to, you know, with volume and new product, those new products tend to have higher margins because of the value that we're providing to our customers, the supply chain, you know, excellence. While we're improving productivity, improving productivity within the four walls, we're still not at our normalized levels of productivity, if you will, so there's still plenty of runway there to go. We're also doing things like transportation optimization, lean automation, simplification of product families.
So there's a lot going on there as well, along with just general, you know, functional excellence, that you do see the leverage we're getting from an SG&A perspective. So there's lots of things that we're doing, to drive that ongoing future margin improvement within Electrical & Fastening Solutions, as well as the broader segments as well, Enclosures and Thermal. The only other thing I would make is that Q3 to Q4 too does include the incremental investments, you know, we plan on making within the ECM acquisition as well, that'll really begin to ramp here in Q4 and into next year.
Joe Ritchie (VP and Senior Equity Analyst)
Got it. That's, that's helpful, Sara. And I guess maybe, maybe piggybacking on, on Julian's question around commercial, it's interesting, I mean, if you take a look at the starts data, it, it's been, it's been pretty, pretty tough over the last several months. And then you look at the performance of each of your different businesses, and depending on the business, you know, commercial resi has been growing or not growing. I'm just. It's, it's kind of hard to square it all. And so maybe, maybe just, maybe just kind of, like, give us a little bit more, insight as to why, you know, potentially, you know, commercial resi might be holding up a little bit better in EFS than in Thermal, if there's any, anything you could add there.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Yeah, I think it has to do with our product portfolio. So if you think of what we do with our nVent CADDY brand, which is all around supporting power and data infrastructure, and you think about it's really applicable to any type of construction or remodel, and we just think everything is getting smarter and there's more power and data, you know, required in a building, in a hospital, you know, whether it's industrial construction, new plants, et cetera. And we've done a lot to invest in new products in that product line. So our new product vitality there is approaching 20%. And, you know, when we acquired EFS, it was, you know, single digits. So seismic, you know, just different things that we're doing that I think that portfolio ubiquitous and, and where we are.
Our commercial portfolio in Thermal is not as ubiquitous, just because we're doing freeze protection, or we're doing underfloor heating, or we're doing, you know, maintaining hot water, heat tracing within a building. So it just, you know, the applications are a little bit different, and I think that's one of the things that we're seeing, the difference there.
Sara Zawoyski (EVP and CFO)
And maybe one other thing to add there, too.
Joe Ritchie (VP and Senior Equity Analyst)
Got it.
Sara Zawoyski (EVP and CFO)
The Thermal Management business has more of the residential, you know, as well, impacting that from a growth rate perspective.
Joe Ritchie (VP and Senior Equity Analyst)
Yeah, I guess maybe that's very helpful and appreciated, all that detail. Maybe the follow-up there is, like, I mean, is there—should we be reading into the commercial starts data and ultimately what that means for your business?
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Well, I, you know, this is one where it's, we've got pockets of growth, and I think one thing we're seeing is, you know, just construction in general, right, which tends to be a little bit more on that industrial construction, is driving growth for some of our products. There's a lot of investment in new battery plants and other things, and sometimes those products and with CADDY get, you know, we just, we can't tell, but, you know, because it may look more commercial, even though it's headed to industrial construction. I think that is another area that's driving growth for us.
Joe Ritchie (VP and Senior Equity Analyst)
Okay, great. Thank you.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Thank you.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. The next question comes from, Vlad Bystricky with Citigroup.
Vlad Bystricky (Director and Equity Research Analyst)
Hey, good morning. Thanks for taking my call.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Morning,
Sara Zawoyski (EVP and CFO)
Good morning.
Vlad Bystricky (Director and Equity Research Analyst)
So just stepping back, I wanted to ask you, you know, as we've seen increased pressure on interest rates recently, just what are you hearing from your channel partners in terms of, you know, how increased cost of funding their own inventory is influencing sort of how they're approaching this destock cycle? And whether you see some risk that, you know, destock could be—they could swing, you know, further in the other direction versus recent cycles, just given their increased cost of financing.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Well, you know, they don't really... They're not really that explicit in sharing with us how they're thinking about it, but we know, you know, that's certainly one of those considerations, and we think that's what's played out over the course of this year, that they've looked at their cost of capital and inventory. And with supply chains improving, it's, it's a multitude of factors. But we certainly think that's what's, that's what's played out here in 2023.
Vlad Bystricky (Director and Equity Research Analyst)
Okay. That's helpful. And then just maybe, you know, you mentioned, I think in Thermal, China, low-double-digits growth. So can you just talk about, you know, specifically, what's driving that in China versus, you know, not a great overall backdrop in the region? You know, and how you're thinking about sort of the sustainability of good growth in China for Thermal?
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Well, one of the things I would say with our business in China, you know, we've got a lot of project type based business, and so some of that could be on the chemical side or on the energy side. And that's where, you know, over the last little while, we've been working on projects and orders and started to see some of that growth there, you know, on that industrial side for us.
Vlad Bystricky (Director and Equity Research Analyst)
Great. That's, that's really helpful. Thanks. I'll get back to you.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Thank you.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. The next question comes from Jeff Hammond with KeyBanc Capital Markets.
Jeff Hammond (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)
Hey, good morning, everyone.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Good morning.
Jeff Hammond (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)
Hey, maybe just to go at the organic growth a different way. You know, it looks like you lowered your guide, you know, from four to six to six to four. And I'm just wondering if that's simply kind of the destocking effects or, you know, if there's anything else that that's driving that change?
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
That's basically it. You know, we, you know, as we've noted, some of our channel partners, we think, are through that inventory adjustment, and then some have indicated they're going to continue that through Q4. So just in light of that, and it sort of being choppy, we just said, you know, we just. That, you know, that was our view, that we would see improvements in, from Q3 to Q4, but we did lower it just because that inventory adjustment is going to continue into that fourth quarter.
Jeff Hammond (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)
Okay, great. Just on liquid cooling, it seems like a lot of other companies are talking about liquid cooling. Maybe just update us on competitive landscape, emerging competitors. I don't know if these products are maybe complementary or different or if you're seeing, you know, kind of new competition and new capacity investments.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Well, you know, a couple of things. You know, we've been at this for a long time, even pre-spin, working with some of these big leading customers, and over the course of the last, you know, five years, have developed some solutions that took a while to really optimize the manufacturing supply chain capability, and they're really ramping. So, and it, as I mentioned, it takes two years to test. So I think for some, it takes, it takes time, and there are some startups than others, but it takes time to get to scale in manufacturing. So I think, you know, we're in a good position and we're accelerating.
I think there's a lot of interest here, clearly, with AI, and, you know, we're expanding from what have been more solutions for hyperscalers into solutions that we can sell through distribution channels or to enterprise accounts. And we think that's where over the next several years, we're really going to start to see more scale adoption. So I feel from the standpoint that, you know, we have several partnerships, so whether it's a cold plate or immersion, we have the manifolds, we're doing the distribution units, we've got solutions that are liquid to air, liquid to liquid. I mean, we've got a variety in our portfolio. So I think it's going to be an area of strong growth, and I think we've got a good start on it.
Jeff Hammond (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)
Great. And then just last one on ECM. I think when you announced the deal, I think the margin structure was kind of in line with the overall nVent, maybe well below EFS. But it sounds like maybe it's coming in a lot higher and, you know, do we need to kind of adjust our expectations for, you know, kind of margin contribution from that business?
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Yeah. So out of the gate, Jeff, you know, we had said that ECM would be accretive to overall nVent, and just given the margin profile of EFS would be a bit, you know, dilutive there out of the gate. But I would say that, I mean, I think that ECM margin profile is a couple things. Like I said, it's the mix profile that, you know, we do believe that as that growth accelerates, it'll probably revert back a little bit to the prior kind of margin profile. But-
We're gonna continue to execute on our cost synergies, and that should accelerate, you know, over time. And I think the third piece, you know, to keep in mind too, is the investment. So I think what you're seeing right now is, you know, great execution by the team, you know, very good price cost management, and some early cost synergies. I think something to think about as you think about Q4 and into next year, is just the increased investment that we plan on making, you know, to really, you know, ramp the top line even more and, you know, capture some of those sales synergies.
Jeff Hammond (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)
Okay, great. Appreciate the time.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Thank you.
Tony Riter (VP of Investor Relations)
Thanks, Jeff.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. The next question comes from Scott Graham with Seaport Research.
Scott Graham (Senior Analyst in Industrial Technology and Water Industrials)
Hey, good morning, all, and very nice print, and never get tired of saying that with you people.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Thank you, Scott.
Scott Graham (Senior Analyst in Industrial Technology and Water Industrials)
So Beth, just to maybe ask you to elaborate your comment on 2024, sorry. When you said growth, do you mean organic or earnings or both?
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Well, I was specifically talking about, you know, our overall growth, but I mean, both. We expect to grow organically, inorganically, obviously, with these acquisitions, and to grow EPS.
Scott Graham (Senior Analyst in Industrial Technology and Water Industrials)
Very good. Thank you. And, one for you, Sara. The drop-down in incremental margin in the fourth quarter from the third quarter, is that because, you know, the gap in positive price cost peaks, has peaked in the third quarter and kind of narrows a little bit in the fourth quarter?
Sara Zawoyski (EVP and CFO)
Well, here's what I would say: there's nothing different in terms of price cost on performance first half, second half. We came into the second half expecting that to narrow. At the same time, though, Scott, I would say the productivity is ramping. I think one thing to keep in mind is if you look at the cadence of last year, Q4 was our best return on sales, you know, expansion that we had last year, roughly 300 basis points, and that's when it began to kind of turn. That's when some of our, you know, pricing actions were coming into play. And so it's one of our most difficult comps. I think Enclosures expanded return on sales by, like, over 600 basis points in the quarter.
So I would just come back to in Q4, if you look at it, just from a year-over-year standpoint, despite the difficult comp, we're planning on growing organically. We've got a good line of sight to another quarter of margin expansion, you know, across nVent. And then you roll in the positive impact of acquisitions, so it's summing up to a really nice kind of year-over-year earnings, per share, as we end the year.
Scott Graham (Senior Analyst in Industrial Technology and Water Industrials)
Yep. Got it. Thank you. Last one, if you don't mind. Just wanted to understand your capital allocation thinking, given the, you know, sort of the higher for longer mantra that we continue to hear from the Fed. Does that slow things down for you guys? I know you've got the great opportunity, understand that, get that. Just that, are, are you thinking that maybe you have to, you know, pause a little bit here, or does your criteria get stricter? What, what, what's changing, if anything, in that environment?
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Well, look, I think we've always fundamentally been very strategic and disciplined in how we look at, you know, our capital allocation. And we've always said, first, we want to support growth. And so you've seen that in the M&A that we've done, in the investment in new products, digital expansion, right for Data Solutions, pay a competitive dividend and, you know, make sure we offset dilution. And, you know, I think that still remains our position. And as we look at, you know, things like growth, we're always looking for good returns and that we can, you know, execute within our framework. So I don't, I don't think it's giving us any, any different perspective in how we think about our priorities.
Scott Graham (Senior Analyst in Industrial Technology and Water Industrials)
Okay. Thank you. Again, very nice quarter.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Thank you, Scott.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. This concludes the question and answer session. Now I'd like to return the call to Beth Wozniak for any closing comments.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Thank you for joining us today. I'm very pleased with our performance in Q3. We believe nVent is a top-tier, high-performance electrical company, well positioned for the Electrification of Everything, sustainability, and digitalization trends. Thanks again for joining us. This concludes the call.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. As mentioned, the conference has now concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation, and you may now disconnect your lines.