nVent Electric - Q3 2024
November 1, 2024
Transcript
Operator (participant)
Good day, and welcome to the nVent Electric third quarter 2024 earnings Conference Call. All participants will be in listen-only mode. Should you need assistance, please signal a conference specialist by pressing the star key followed by zero. After today's presentation, there will be an opportunity to ask questions. To ask a question, you may press star then one on your telephone keypad. To withdraw your question, please press star then two. Please note, this event is being recorded. Oh, now I turn the conference over to Tony Reynders, Vice President of Investor Relations. Please go ahead.
Tony Riter (VP of Investor Relations)
Thank you, and welcome to nVent's third quarter 2024 earnings call. On the call with me are Beth Wozniak, our Chair and Chief Executive Officer, and Sarah Zawoyski, our Chief Financial Officer. They will provide details on our third quarter performance, an outlook for the fourth quarter, and an update to our full year 2024 outlook. Please take note. As a result of the previously announced agreement to sell the thermal management business, the company is reporting the results of this business as discontinued operations and has reclassified 2023 and 2024 results for all prior periods. In addition, guidance is now presented on a continued operations basis. All results referenced throughout this presentation are on a continued operations basis unless otherwise stated.
Before we begin, let me remind you that any statements made about the company's anticipated financial results are forward-looking statements subject to future risks and uncertainties, such as the risks outlined in today's press release and nVent's filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Forward-looking statements are made as of today, and the company undertakes no obligation to update publicly such statements to reflect subsequent events or circumstances. Actual results could differ materially from anticipated results. Today's webcast is accompanied by a presentation, which you can find in the investor section of nVent's website. References to non-GAAP financials are reconciled in the appendix of the presentation. We will have time for questions after our prepared remarks. Please limit your questions to one and one follow-up. With that, please turn to slide three, and I'll turn the call over to Beth.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Thank you, Tony, and good morning, everyone. It's great to be with you today to share our strong third quarter results. We continue to execute on our strategy for growth with a focus on high-growth verticals, new products, and global expansion. In the third quarter, we delivered record sales, up 9%, both on a continuing operations and total basis. Total adjusted earnings and cash flows were strong, coming in better than expected, and we continue to make investments to expand our data solutions business. Our portfolio transformation is underway with the announced sale of the thermal management business, and we expect the sale of the business to close by early 2025. Our most recent acquisition, Trachte, is off to a good start, growing sales strong double digits, and is a great new platform for nVent.
We believe these portfolio moves will make nVent a more focused and higher-growth electrical connection and protection leader and further positions nVent with the electrification, sustainability, and digitalization trends. Now onto slide four for a summary of our third quarter performance. Sales in the quarter were up 1% organically, led by infrastructure. Year to date, new products have contributed over three points to sales growth, and we've launched 77 new products. Adjusted operating income grew 4% year over year, with return on sales down 120 basis points due to investments and mix. Adjusted EPS was $0.63. We generated an impressive $143 million in free cash flow, up over 30%. We're on track for another strong year. Looking at sales performance across our key verticals, infrastructure led the way, up low double digits organically, with data solutions growing double digits. Industrial was down low single digits.
Commercial Resi declined mid-single digits with continued end market softness. Turning to organic sales by geography, North America was up low single digits, and Asia Pacific had strong broad-based growth. Europe declined low single digits. Lastly, organic orders in Q3 grew mid-single digits year over year. Looking ahead to Q4 from a vertical perspective, we expect infrastructure to have the strongest growth, particularly data solutions and power utilities. Industrial is expected to be flat, Commercial Resi to remain soft.
In addition, macro uncertainty remains with the upcoming elections and interest rates, which has some distributors cautiously managing inventory. Overall, I'm very proud of our nVent team and how we continue to execute and deliver for our customers and shareholders while transforming the portfolio. We're on track for another strong year. I will now turn the call over to Sarah for further detail on our third quarter results and our updated outlook for 2024. Sarah, please go ahead.
Sara Zawoyski (VP and President of Electrical & Fastening Solutions)
Thank you, Beth. We have a strong third quarter performance with both segments growing, better than expected earnings, and record cash flow. Let's turn to slide five to review our results, which, as a reminder, are all on a continuing operations basis. Sales of $782 million were up 9% relative to last year, or up 1% organically. Volumes contributed approximately two points to growth, and price was essentially flat. Acquisitions added $59 million to sales, or eight points to growth, better than expected. Foreign exchange impact was neutral. Third quarter adjusted operating income was $168 million, up 4%. Return on sales was 21.5%, down 120 basis points year over year. This reflected tough prior year comps and corporate costs and electrical and fastening mix and higher investments this year. Inflation was roughly $25 million in the quarter.
Q3 adjusted EPS was $0.63, down 3% due to higher interest and taxes as expected. We generated outstanding free cash flow in the quarter of $143 million, up 33%, or 18% of sales, reflecting strong working capital performance. Now, please turn to slide six for a discussion of our third quarter segment performance. Starting with enclosures, the team delivered another excellent quarter. Sales of $477 million increased 16% and 1% organically. Acquisitions added 14 points to sales. The Trachte acquisition performed very well, with sales up strong double digits versus a year ago and a growing robust backlog. The integration is off to a great start. From a vertical perspective, infrastructure led up double digits with strength in data solutions in both power and cooling. Industrial and Commercial Resi each declined. Geographically, North America grew low single digits, and Asia Pacific grew mid-teens, while Europe was down.
Enclosures third quarter segment income was an impressive $104 million, up 17%. Return on Sales of 21.9% increased 20 basis points year over year, driven by strong execution. Productivity and higher margins from new products more than offset inflation and helped fund investments. Electrical and fastening returned to sales growth in the quarter. Sales of $305 million increased 1% organically. Growth was led by infrastructure, including power utilities, up high single digits. In addition, industrial grew mid-single digits. Commercial Resi remained soft. Geographically, organic sales in North America were flat, and Asia Pacific grew double digits, while Europe was down. Electrical and fastening segment income was $93 million, down 5% year over year. Return on Sales was a solid 30.4%, down 190 basis points, mainly due to tough comps from mix.
On slide seven, titled Balance Sheet and Cash Flow, we ended the quarter with $137 million of cash on hand and $600 million available in our revolver. Free cash flow was exceptionally strong in the quarter. Year to date, free cash flow of $277 million was up nearly 50% versus a year ago. The fourth quarter is historically our highest cash flow quarter, and we expect continued improvements in working capital. Turning to slide eight, where we outline our capital allocation priorities. We will continue to take a balanced and disciplined approach to capital allocation to deliver strong returns. Growth remains our first priority, both organic and inorganic. In the quarter, we expanded our footprint to increase our liquid cooling capability 4X and support our growing backlog.
We completed the acquisition of Trachte, providing a new growth platform, and we have returned $195 million year to date to shareholders, including $100 million in share repurchases in the third quarter. Looking ahead, we expect to have a significant optionality for further capital deployment with the sale of the thermal management business and strong cash flow generation. Moving to slide nine and our full year outlook on a continuing operations basis. We are updating our full year guidance to reflect the thermal management business moving to discontinued operations and narrowing the range with one quarter to go. For the full year, reported sales are expected to grow approximately 13%, organically up roughly 3%. Acquisitions are expected to contribute approximately 10 points to sales growth, and FX is expected to be neutral. Our outlook for full year adjusted EPS is $2.49-$2.51, which represents growth of 7%-8%.
This includes a $0.08 or 3 percentage point negative impact on EPS related to changes in the global tax standards. A few important items to note for the year. First, we expect adjusted operating income to grow 15%-16%. This reflects price and productivity offsetting inflation. In addition, we are making investments in capacity, new products, and digital to accelerate growth and productivity. Second, we are well on track to generate over $400 million of free cash flow with conversion in the range of 95%-100%. Third, corporate costs are now expected to be approximately $110 million. This includes indirect costs of approximately $15 million previously allocated to the thermal management business. Work is already underway to address these costs.
A few additional 2024 assumptions include a tax rate of approximately 23%, net interest expense of approximately $105 million, shares of approximately $168 million, and CapEx of approximately $80 million. We expect full year 2024 to be another year of strong sales, profit, and cash flow. Moving to slide 10 and our fourth quarter outlook. We expect reported sales to grow 11%-13%, with acquisitions contributing approximately 9 points to sales. Organic sales are expected to be up 1%-3%, with both segments growing. We expect adjusted EPS to be between $0.58 and $0.60, up 5%-9% year on year. Wrapping up, I am pleased with our third quarter performance and believe we are well positioned heading into 2025. This concludes my remarks, and I will turn the call back over to Beth.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Thank you, Sarah. Turning to slide 11, let me give you an update on our data solutions business and liquid cooling in particular. As you know, we are a leader in liquid cooling for data centers and have been offering solutions for many years across the cooling continuum. Our differentiation is based on our deep application expertise and our innovative multi-generational designs. We continue to expand our product portfolio to serve data center customers across hyperscale, enterprise, multi-tenant, and our distribution partners.
Our high-density liquid cooling portfolio includes rack and row coolant distribution units and various manifolds. Our advanced cooling solutions are specifically designed to manage the substantial heat output of cutting-edge AI infrastructure, helping to drive optimal performance and longevity. We are well positioned to support the expansion of AI capabilities, driving innovation and efficiency in high-performance computing environments.
We are currently engaged with NVIDIA in the design of liquid cooling products, solutions, and architectures that meet the needs for the GB200 NVL72 and its follow-on next-generation platforms. We will be showcasing our NVIDIA reference design solutions at Supercomputing in a few weeks. We are also actively engaged with other chip manufacturers to understand future cooling requirements. In addition to investing in new products, we are expanding capacity in our facilities, building out our advanced lab and testing capabilities, and partnering with our suppliers to ensure they can rapidly scale with us. We continue to see high demand for our data solutions products in cooling, power, and cable management, and now expect 2024 data solution sales to exceed $575 million. We believe we are well positioned to win in this rapidly growing space. Please turn to slide 12.
Over the last few years, we have demonstrated our growth strategy is working with strong execution, delivering robust sales and adjusted operating income and earnings per share. Looking ahead to 2025, we are undergoing a portfolio transformation, which we believe will make us a more focused, higher-growth electrical connection and protection company. Over 70% of our portfolio is exposed to the secular trends of electrification, sustainability, and digitalization. Infrastructure now represents approximately a third of our portfolio and is expected to grow the most next year. We are well positioned in data solutions and power utilities with robust backlogs. Our outlook for industrial and commercial resi is more positive. New products, again, are expected to be a key driver of our growth.
Finally, as part of our portfolio transformation, we have a very healthy M&A pipeline and project nearly $2 billion in available capital to deploy from the thermal management sale and our robust free cash flow generation. In summary, we expect 2025 to be a strong growth year. Wrapping up on slide 13, we had another strong quarter of operational performance, including record cash flow. Our portfolio transformation is underway. We are well positioned to grow with the electrification, sustainability, and digitalization trends, and our future is bright. With that, I will now turn the call over to the operator to start Q&A.
Operator (participant)
Yes, thank you. We will now begin the question and answer session. To ask a question, you may press star then one on your telephone keypad. If you're using a speakerphone, please pick up your handset before pressing the keys. If at any time your question has been addressed and you would like to withdraw, please press star then two. At this time, we will pause momentarily to assemble the roster. Answering this first question comes from Julian Mitchell with Barclays.
Julian Mitchell (Equity Research Analyst)
Hi, good morning.
Sara Zawoyski (VP and President of Electrical & Fastening Solutions)
Good morning. Good morning.
Julian Mitchell (Equity Research Analyst)
Good morning. Maybe just the first question around the margin outlook. So it looks like I think margins may be down 100 basis points or so operating-wise sequentially in Q4. Just wanted to check that's roughly correct. And when we're thinking more broadly about margins into next year, you have this big investment spend headwind right now in the second half. Does that normalize into next year? And how quickly should that $15 million of indirect unallocated cost get worked down, please?
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Okay, Julian, I think that was a three-part question, so let me start with the first one.In terms of that seasonal downtick on margin from Q3 to Q4, it's just that more seasonal. If you look at historically, EFS tends to be strongest in Q2 and Q3 and lighter from a sales perspective in Q4 and Q1, and the ROS rate is commensurate with that. So you do have some seasonality from a Q3 to Q4 standpoint from a return on sales aspect of things. I think your second question is in regard to investments. I mean, we've been very explicit kind of walking into this year that investments are important to fuel future growth, particularly around new products and data solutions. We have seen that accelerate here in the back half, bringing some of that liquid cooling capability online here in Q3 and Q4.
And I think you can expect us to continue on that new product and some of those commercial data solution investments as we walk into 2025. But those ramp-up costs should diminish over time related to just bringing that capacity up online. And I think your third question was around indirect costs. So essentially, as part of that thermal management now going into enclosures, there are some indirect costs that essentially don't get allocated, if you will, to thermal management. Now that sits within that corporate cost bucket. That's roughly $15 million. And I would say two things. One, work is already underway in terms of reducing those costs, really focused on driving more efficiencies, accelerating some of our business process transformation efforts that we already have underway.
And I would say the second piece of it is really some of that falling off, if you will, with that thermal management business being divested, but there's got to be targeted actions, and we've got that work underway of renegotiating contracts, etc. So I would expect those indirect costs to reduce really throughout 2025.
Julian Mitchell (Equity Research Analyst)
That's super helpful. Thank you. And then maybe a very simple or simpler second question would just be on the organic sales outlook. So I think you're growing sort of one to three in the current quarter year on year. Beth, you sounded more enthused about the outlook for, say, industrial and commercial areas in 2025. So is it reasonable to assume in 2025, based off your comments, that you're not too far off, perhaps, as things look today, that medium-term sort of growth placeholder of four to six that you talked about last year?
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
As we go into 2025, look, the portfolio looks different, and we've been repositioning it around infrastructure, as I said in my comments, right? And so we can look at our backlog and these higher growth verticals. And so we think that is going to set us up as we go forward. The portfolio is now exposed to those trends. And I think as we sit here today, there remains this macro uncertainty. We've got an election coming up, interest rates where they're at, and I think we've seen our distribution partners just be cautious on inventory and, recall, a lot of our portfolio is sold through that distribution channel. So we expect as we get into 2025, the outlook there is more positive and the end market outlook as well.
Julian Mitchell (Equity Research Analyst)
Great. Thank you.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Thank you.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. And the next question comes from Jeffrey Sprague with Vertical Research Partners.
Jeffrey Sprague (Founder and Managing Partner)
Hey, thanks. Good morning, everyone.
Sara Zawoyski (VP and President of Electrical & Fastening Solutions)
Good morning.
Jeffrey Sprague (Founder and Managing Partner)
Hey, good morning. Hey, just on the NVIDIA collaboration that you mentioned here, maybe I missed it, but did they press release this name-by-name partner ecosystem or something? Just wondering, maybe we're going to hear that at Supercomputing, but any color there?
Sara Zawoyski (VP and President of Electrical & Fastening Solutions)
More to come. How about I say that? And yes, we will be showcasing a lot of our products and collaboration efforts at Supercomputing.
Jeffrey Sprague (Founder and Managing Partner)
In their booth or just in your booth?
Sara Zawoyski (VP and President of Electrical & Fastening Solutions)
In our booth. And I will say we will have other cooling products in other booths as well. I don't want to give away too much there, Jeff, but you will see our event product showcase around the Supercomputing show.
Jeffrey Sprague (Founder and Managing Partner)
Okay. And what was the negative mix effect in EFS that you mentioned?
Sara Zawoyski (VP and President of Electrical & Fastening Solutions)
Yeah, a lot of that, Jeff, was prior year, and we called that out last year, particularly in Q2 and Q3. Their return on sales in those quarters was north of 32%. And just based on the mix of sales in those quarters, they were getting kind of an outsized impact from positive mix that we didn't expect to continue as we go forward. So again, on an absolute basis, their return on sales this quarter was north of 30%. It's just that year-over-year comp was a tough comp. We do think that that comp gets easier in Q4 based on what that mix looked like a year ago as well.
Jeffrey Sprague (Founder and Managing Partner)
And how are you thinking about price going forward? Obviously, it took the little negative and it trailed kind of inflation, productivity, investments collectively. How do you think you could kind of manage that algorithm as we move into Q4 in 2025?
Sara Zawoyski (VP and President of Electrical & Fastening Solutions)
You know, Jeff, I think we see the price things are very stable is how we would characterize it. And in the past several years, we've seen more outsized price than volume. Now we're seeing strong contributions of volume, but we do think that that price will be positive as we go forward into 2025.
Jeffrey Sprague (Founder and Managing Partner)
Great. Thank you.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. And the next question comes from Nigel Coe with Wolfe Research.
Nigel Coe (Managing Director and Senior Research Analyst)
Thanks. Good morning, everyone.
Sara Zawoyski (VP and President of Electrical & Fastening Solutions)
Morning.
Nigel Coe (Managing Director and Senior Research Analyst)
So yeah, so I think, Sarah, this is for you, I think. So the 4Q 1%-3% core sales, maybe just break that out between the two segments. I'm guessing it's not going to be that different between the two, but I do want to try and understand a little bit better the lumpiness in data solutions and perhaps liquid cooling as well, and how that's influencing sort of the kind of 3Q to 4Q because it does feel like the sales are a bit flatter 3Q to 4Q than perhaps normal seasonality.
Sara Zawoyski (VP and President of Electrical & Fastening Solutions)
Well, let me take that first one. Your guess is right, Nigel, in terms of both segments kind of being in that 1%-3% range. If you look at it just from a vertical standpoint overall, we continue to expect good growth in infrastructure, industrial mixed, stronger in EFS, a bit softer in enclosures, and continued commercial resi softness overall.
And again, I would just reiterate what Beth said in her prepared remarks. What's encouraging is that both segments saw good order growth in Q3 as well, informing that. I think the one caution there is just at the end of the year and given some of these macro uncertainties, we would expect some distributors to manage those inventory levels there at year-end. In terms of Q3 and Q4 seasonality from a sales perspective, look, I think that the biggest seasonality element there that we're seeing is really just EFS. And I think that's pretty consistent with historically. Again, going back, EFS is going to be stronger in Q2 and Q3. And that Q3 to Q4, you're going to see a little bit of that downtick, if you will, on the EFS sales front.
Nigel Coe (Managing Director and Senior Research Analyst)
Anything on the phasing of shipments in data solutions?
Sara Zawoyski (VP and President of Electrical & Fastening Solutions)
Not necessarily. No, we talked about data solutions kind of this first half versus second half. We talked about that a little bit last quarter. And some of that is just based on timing of some of these more meaningful customer programs of where that comes into place. But we feel really good about our backlog. Orders are strong and again, making great progress and building that capability. And Beth talked about what we're also underway in terms of building out the testing and the lab capability. So really excited about the future of data solutions. And now I know you guys have been asking in terms of what that data solutions number looks like, but kind of characterizing that at $575 million we expect for this year, so meaningfully higher than what it was a year ago.
Nigel Coe (Managing Director and Senior Research Analyst)
That's great. Thanks, Sarah. And then just a quick one on the M&A sort of pipeline development. You've got a lot of cash to deploy, which is obviously good news. But do you expect this to be a series of acquisitions, or do you think there could be one or two sort of larger opportunities? And are we sort of set on deploying the bulk of the excess capital in 2025 on M&A, or could there be some buybacks as well?
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Well, as you know, we've always said our first priority with our capital allocation is growth, both organic and inorganic. And as we look at our pipeline, we think that it is very robust. I think we've demonstrated our ability to integrate larger deals. And so as we look into 2025, and I always say this, you never can control the timing of deals, but I think it does give us an opportunity if we want to do a more sizable deal. But again, we're disciplined in the multiples we pay. But I believe that we have good opportunity as we go into 2025 to execute on M&A.
Nigel Coe (Managing Director and Senior Research Analyst)
Okay. Thanks, Beth. Thank you.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. And the next question comes from Deane Dray with RBC Capital Markets.
Deane Dray (Managing Director and Senior Equity Analyst)
Thank you. Good morning, everyone.
Sara Zawoyski (VP and President of Electrical & Fastening Solutions)
Good morning.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Good morning.
Deane Dray (Managing Director and Senior Equity Analyst)
I appreciate the slide 11 with the portfolio snapshots as well as sizing data solutions. And I know you set it up double digits, but can you be more specific on what data center did in the quarter in terms of growth?
Sara Zawoyski (VP and President of Electrical & Fastening Solutions)
We don't necessarily break that out more specifically, but I think if you look at just that $575 million that we're expecting for the full year and look at where that was last year, that's in excess of 20% from a year-over-year growth perspective. And again, I'll just go back to the order book has been strong there with continuing backlog growth as well. So feel good about that heading into 2025.
Deane Dray (Managing Director and Senior Equity Analyst)
Understood. So and that kind of brings up the question about market share and growth rates and how you stack up versus peers in this space. And so one of the challenges, and we've talked about this with you before, but the idea here is you are in many platforms and partners where you don't see the nVent name. And so it's a bit like in the early 1990s when Intel went to the Intel Inside, that's when people started to see and appreciate how pervasive and what kind of share Intel had. So how are you addressing this in the way of being able to profile your share? I know you're a leader, you've been in it the first in terms of liquid cooling, but what kind of challenges do you have here in being able to talk about where and how you're in different platforms, but not necessarily able to put your name on it?
Sara Zawoyski (VP and President of Electrical & Fastening Solutions)
Well, Deane, I think I would start by saying that in this hyperscale, high-compute community, the nVent name and capability is well-known and understood. So those who are involved in the design and development, and I think we're continuing to expand our offerings and ensuring that we're marketing our capability more broadly, especially as you get perhaps into multi-tenant or more through the distribution channels where the knowledge of what's going on in this high-compute, in terms of just the liquid cooling capability, there's still many who are learning about it.
So we're working with our distribution partners there. But our view is we're going to continue to invest in new products. We're ramping with many of those customers that we can't speak about. We're on the next generation of designs. We talked about our collaboration with NVIDIA, and I said, "Stay tuned. There's more that we will be sharing at Supercomputing." So from my perspective, I think we just need to continue to go fast. The space is evolving rapidly, and we're making investments from new products to capacity to our suppliers to our lab capability and expect this to continue to be rapid growth for us.
Deane Dray (Managing Director and Senior Equity Analyst)
Great. My follow-up question is exactly on that, the 4X capacity expansion. Can you give us a sense? I mean, if the market is growing in excess of 40%, how much is this capacity expansion? How far does that take you in the next couple of years? And just remind us, how much is actually manufacturing capacity versus the amount of test labs? Because that's really how you have proof to your partners that the liquid cooling delivers on the specs that they require.
Sara Zawoyski (VP and President of Electrical & Fastening Solutions)
Yeah. So Deane, the manufacturing capacity, when we refer to that, is about a 4X capacity. And we think that's going to get us through the next couple of years. At this point, that can change. And so we're in the process of building that out. Our lab expansion is going to take us through into 2025, but that more than doubles our lab capability and capacity of what we have today. And by the way, all of that isn't enough. And so I wanted to make that point that we've been working with our supply base because you also have to ensure that they can rapidly scale as well. So there's a lot of different areas that we're investing from an end-to-end perspective to make sure that we can continue on the growth rate that we're at and continue to offer solutions more broadly as we start to see some of these AI chips extend beyond, just say, the hyperscalers.
Deane Dray (Managing Director and Senior Equity Analyst)
That's great. Looking forward to seeing the team in Atlanta. Thank you.
Sara Zawoyski (VP and President of Electrical & Fastening Solutions)
Thank you.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. The next question comes from Joe Ritchie with Goldman Sachs.
Joe Ritchie (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)
Hey, guys.
Sara Zawoyski (VP and President of Electrical & Fastening Solutions)
Good morning.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Good morning.
Joe Ritchie (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)
Good morning. Hey. So maybe following on that thread, and I'm sure, again, we'll hear more in a few weeks. But I'm trying to understand the productivity right now that you have in your data center business and liquid cooling specifically. Maybe just kind of comment. Last time we saw the offering, it just seemed like you guys were trying to run as fast as you could, and it was probably not fully efficient at that point. And so I'm just curious to understand the margins and just any comments you can make around the productivity you have around that business today.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Well, I'll start there, and I'll let Sarah jump in. We've always said that our liquid cooling margins, or sorry, our data solutions margins, kind of reflected the products in that portfolio of our segment, so what we do around cable management kind of reflects the margins that we have in EFS. What we do around liquid cooling and power and some of the other products reflect the margin in enclosures. Now, having said that, there's a lot of investment going in, and there's a lot of startup cost to that, and so we do think that over time, there's opportunity to drive some more efficiency, so the margins are good today, but we know that over time, they will get better as things scale more and more, and I'll let Sarah add anything to that that she wants.
Sara Zawoyski (VP and President of Electrical & Fastening Solutions)
Yeah. Maybe the only thing else I would add is I think the enclosures business has just delivered some underlying strong productivity and seeing some good operating leverage as well as better mix on some of these new products, new programs. So even with some of these bringing the capacity online and these investments, we still expanded return on sales in the quarter. So there's some strong underlying productivity there as well.
Joe Ritchie (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)
Okay. Good to hear. And then I guess just circling back to the organic growth question and heading into next year, if I kind of pull out your acquisition contribution from this year and the comments that you've made around data solutions, it seems like the rest of the business isn't growing this year from an organic growth standpoint. And so I'm curious, Beth, as you kind of think about 2025, are there areas that are kind of really depressed within your business where you could see an inflection that just spur organic growth? And then just to follow on to that, are there any capacity constraints that you have to be able to meet demands if it were to inflect outside of data solutions, of course?
Sara Zawoyski (VP and President of Electrical & Fastening Solutions)
Okay. Well, I think one of the things we've said this year is that commercial resi has been soft. And so we do expect that to improve in 2025. The second I would point out to is industrial. And so we've seen some strength in industrial in EFS, and we've seen some weakness in our enclosures business. Some of that also has to do with CapEx investments, interest rates, but it also has to do with our distribution channel.
Again, we think that improves going into next year. I would talk about power utilities where, again, we've strengthened the portfolio with that Trachte acquisition. But earlier in the year, we certainly saw this level of inventory at end customers and the distribution channels. But our EFS business and enclosures in Q3 saw nice growth in power utilities because we believe some of that inventory adjustments have taken place. But looking at 2025, I think some of this macro uncertainty, even tied to elections, gets behind us. And the portfolio, we believe, is strengthened with the things that we've done with acquisitions and new products. And so our view is positive as we go into and backlog support going into 2025 as a strong growth year.
Joe Ritchie (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)
Okay. Great. Thank you.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. And the next question comes from Robert Schmitz with Citi.
Robert Schmitz (Analyst)
Hey. Good morning.
Operator (participant)
Good morning.
Robert Schmitz (Analyst)
Thanks for taking my call. So maybe just following up on the growth question in another way. I mean, if you think about the, you had mid-single-digit orders growth in 3Q, but 1% organic revenue, and you're guiding 1% to 3% organic in 4Q. So I guess, can you talk about when we should see that higher level of orders growth more directly convert to revenue?
Sara Zawoyski (VP and President of Electrical & Fastening Solutions)
Well, I think, yes, you're correct. We're guiding 1% to 3%. And I think we have a mix when we look at our orders of short cycle and some backlog we've spoken to that we see with, say, data solutions. But we believe as we get into 2025, because again, I think this quarter, we see this macro uncertainty that has, again, distributors pausing, for example, or managing inventory.
And I think as we get into 2025, we start to see improvements in terms of how our growth layers in. And maybe I would add just one point to 2024 here. I mean, if you look at just kind of where we're at year to date and some of the context that we've given on Q4, if you look at enclosures, I mean, they're expected to be strong mid-single-digit growth this year, right? And infrastructure has been a big part of that. And that's even with some of the underlying headwinds around industrial Europe, etc. And then EFS, obviously, not as much. But again, in the start of the year, that's where we had some of the infrastructure, the utility channel inventory dynamics that we were working through and commercial resi headwinds.
And again, so as we flip next year, it's not far off, right, from enclosures being strong mid-single digits. And then it's the end market dynamics that Beth talked about in terms of turning on the EFS side.
Robert Schmitz (Analyst)
Got it. That's helpful. Appreciate it. And then maybe just moving to TRACD for a minute. I mean, you mentioned it's off to a good start as it's coming into the portfolio with double-digit growth, which is great to hear. Can you just talk more about sort of the visibility that you have within their backlog? How far out does their visibility extend?
Sara Zawoyski (VP and President of Electrical & Fastening Solutions)
In some cases, we can see orders that we get like a year of visibility. Some are maybe shorter than that. But we do have a good backlog as we go into next year. And if you think about what we're doing there, these are control houses that are used to support upgrades for an aging electrical infrastructure as well as with renewables and with data centers as well. So we have some nicer visibility there and just see continued strong growth in our outlook.
Robert Schmitz (Analyst)
Appreciate the color. Thanks.
Sara Zawoyski (VP and President of Electrical & Fastening Solutions)
Thank you.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. The next question comes from Nicole DeBlase with Deutsche Bank.
Nicole DeBlase (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)
Yeah. Thanks. Good morning.
Sara Zawoyski (VP and President of Electrical & Fastening Solutions)
Good morning.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Good morning.
Nicole DeBlase (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)
Maybe just starting on orders and kind of dovetailing with the expectations for 2025 with respect to industrial and commercial and resi. Have you guys seen any sign of improvement in order activity, or is it more about rates coming down and some of the macro dynamics that gives you conviction that those parts of the businesses can turn positive? I'd say things have been stable. How about I put it that way?
But our view is that interest rates and this macro uncertainty and also just how distributors are managing through this year, that first, the fact that it's stable is good. Utility certainly improved. I would make that comment. But our view is that does get better in 2025. Okay. That's helpful. Thank you. And then I guess maybe could you talk a little bit about what you're seeing holistically from a channel inventory perspective? It seems like things are kind of going according to plan with less of those headwinds in the back half of the year. But I guess, how would you characterize inventory now? Thank you.
Sara Zawoyski (VP and President of Electrical & Fastening Solutions)
Well, I think I would start by saying through the distribution channel, we've actually seen positive sell-out. And so the sell-in is a little bit weaker. And so this is why we believe that many of them have talked about managing their cash flow performance and interest rates. And so we think that it's that inventory level, they're just being very cautious. And so as we get into 2025, because they talk about end market demand still being good, so we expect that situation will improve as we go into 2025.
Nicole DeBlase (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)
Thank you. I'll pass it on.
Sara Zawoyski (VP and President of Electrical & Fastening Solutions)
Thank you.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. And the next question comes from Jeff Hammond with KeyBanc Capital Markets.
Jeff Hammond (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)
Hey. Good morning.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Good morning. Good morning, Jeff.
Jeff Hammond (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)
Hey. Just back to capital allocation. I'm just wondering, you did a $100 million buyback in the quarter, and I'm just wondering, I know the focus is organic, inorganic, but just how to think about any earmark for buyback around the thermal cell.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
When we announced the sale, the intent for the sale, we did say our first priority always remains growth, both organic and inorganic, but there is the opportunity to do some buybacks. And so we did that in Q3. And I think as we go into next year, as I like to say, you never can control the timing of M&A. And certainly, if there was no M&A opportunity or the world changed, there's always opportunity to do some buybacks.
Jeff Hammond (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)
Okay. And then utility, I think that had been kind of a drag, and I think you called out high single-digit growth. Is that just a function of comps, or are you actually seeing that business start to re-accelerate?
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
In our EFS business, this was a challenge for us in the first half of the year, and we talked about high comp. We had really high growth in 2023. We also had lead times that were extended, and they've now come back in line, so Q3 for us in our EFS business in that utility segment was very strong, and so we believe that, and we also see the backlog that we have in our enclosures and Trachte business, and so as we look into 2025, we think utilities is going to be a key driver of our infrastructure growth.
Jeff Hammond (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)
Okay. Great, and then just last one, orders up mid-single digits. I think you haven't really been calling out orders, so I'm assuming that's a re-acceleration, and I'm just wondering, is that largely data solutions, or is it more broad-based than that?
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
It's actually more broad-based, and so we've seen strong orders in enclosures, and it's a mix, but data solutions has been good, and we've seen mid-single digit orders in EFS as well.
Jeff Hammond (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)
Okay. Thanks so much, Beth.
Sara Zawoyski (VP and President of Electrical & Fastening Solutions)
Thank you. The next question comes from Ryan Jarvi with William Blair.
Good morning. I was wondering if you could just, I don't know if you're willing to do this or not, give us a little more granularity on that $575 million. Because in the past, we've talked about the data solutions category, and then within that, power and cooling, and then within that, liquid cooling. And can you just comment on whether power and cooling is now maybe more than half of that $575 million? And then I'm curious what power and cooling is growing at as well.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Yes. You're right. We've always said that cooling and power is about 50%. So I would say it's a little more than 50%. But I also like to say some of our cable management business has been growing at that same rate because it's all part of the solution as we go forward. But certainly, with the growth rates around liquid cooling, we expect that's going to continue to increase as a percentage of that overall data solutions portfolio.
Okay. And then is there any way you could give us an update on the expected timing of the thermal deal? And it's going to be a massive amount of cash that you'll have at that point and the interest rate that you expect at least to, I know you can't predict interest rates, but the interest rate that you're getting on your cash.
So yes. When we announced the sale, we said that we expect the sale of the thermal management business to occur in early 2025, by early 2025. And I'll let Sarah comment on our cash. Yeah. I think you could think about it in the context of sort of a rate in that 4%-5% range, depending upon what sits on the balance sheet and earns interest from a deposit standpoint, or even looking at some of our prepayable term debt and what we're paying on that, which is 6%. So if you look at kind of the blend of that, you can think about in that 4%-5% range.
Right. Okay. Thank you very much.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. And the next question comes from David Silver with CL King.
David Silver (Senior Managing Director and Director of Research and Senior Research Analyst)
Yeah. Hi. Good morning.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Good morning.
David Silver (Senior Managing Director and Director of Research and Senior Research Analyst)
I just wanted to follow up maybe on your comments on the TRACD business serving as a new platform. I think you mentioned that a couple of times in your prepared remarks. But you mentioned the business is off to a good start. My sense is that it touches on some different end markets, different customer base. When you did make the deal, I'm sure you had some longer-term plans. I mean, do those plans, I mean, maybe if you could just add a little color on where the business might be heading in the next few years.
But is this a business you want to scale up? Is this a business where the breadth, adding breadth is more important? And then maybe since it is "a new platform," is this something that's best managed within the enclosures, the larger enclosures group, or are there some differences that maybe make you think down the road it could form the basis for a new third segment? Anyway, just your thinking about it. I know it's very early days, but strategically, what are some of your thoughts about the opportunities there?
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Well, as you know, and we've published this, we have this M&A framework. And we always think of great products in high-growth verticals that we can invest in and scale. And so for us, as we thought about our enclosure segment and how could we have a stronger position in utilities, we saw this as an offering that was growing with the dynamics of aging infrastructure, data center buildout. And effectively, and I'm being very simplistic here, it is a larger type enclosure than what we were doing today. And I also like to say that when you go in these control houses, you see more enclosures, and you also see some of the other products that are in the nVent portfolio.
And so we saw this as an opportunity for us to extend what we do in enclosures in a more scaled way that we felt that we could have synergies with the rest of the nVent portfolio and allow us to expand our position in utilities, renewables, and add to what we do in data centers. And I think there's a lot of synergies within the enclosures portfolio because you can think of how we purchase materials, etc., that at this point, we believe that it's a part of that segment, and we're going to continue to, as per our framework, invest in it and scale it to grow.
David Silver (Senior Managing Director and Director of Research and Senior Research Analyst)
Okay. Great. Thank you very much. That's it for me. Appreciate it.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Thank you.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. And that does conclude the question and answer session. I would like to return to the conference by going over to Beth Wozniak for any closing comments.
Beth Wozniak (Chair and CEO)
Thank you for joining us today. I'm very pleased with our performance in Q3. We will continue to focus on our customers, employees, and shareholders by executing on our growth strategy and transforming our portfolio. I'm excited for our future. Thanks again for joining us. This concludes the call.
Operator (participant)
Thank you. As mentioned, the conference has concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation. You may now disconnect.