DuPont De Nemours - Earnings Call - Q4 2024

Executive Summary

• Q4 delivered solid top-line and margin expansion: net sales $3.092B (+7% YoY), operating EBITDA $0.807B (+13% YoY), and adjusted EPS $1.13 (+30% YoY), driven by Electronics strength and a return to growth in Water & Protection; GAAP EPS was $(0.17) due to significant items (notably interest rate swap MTM).
• FY25 guidance embeds mid‑single digit organic growth: Q1’25E net sales ~$3.025B, operating EBITDA ~$0.760B, adj. EPS ~$0.95; FY25E net sales $12.8–$12.9B, operating EBITDA $3.325–$3.375B, adj. EPS $4.30–$4.40; EPS assumes ~1% higher tax rate vs 2024 (~$0.10 headwind).
• Strategic catalysts: Electronics spin targeted for Nov 1, 2025; Water retained; segment reporting realignment begins Q1’25; dividend raised 8% to $0.41 per share (payable Mar 17, 2025).
• Street vs. results: S&P Global consensus estimates were unavailable at time of analysis; however, management noted Q4 exceeded its own November guidance on sales, EBITDA, and EPS—a positive narrative catalyst into 2025.

What Went Well and What Went Wrong

• What Went Well

  • Electronics momentum: E&I organic +10% YoY; Semi up low‑teens (AI adoption, China); Interconnect up low‑double digits; E&I operating EBITDA margin expanded 250 bps to 30.3%.
  • Water & Protection recovery: Organic +6% YoY with Water up low‑double digits; Safety Solutions (medical packaging) up high‑single digits; W&P margin +170 bps to 26.3%.
  • Actionable quote: “continued strength in electronics end-markets and a return to year-over-year top-line growth in Water & Protection” — CEO Lori Koch.

• What Went Wrong

  • GAAP loss in Q4: $(61)M GAAP loss (EPS $(0.17)) largely from significant items, including a non‑cash interest rate swap MTM loss ($290M pretax).
  • Corporate & Other softness: Organic sales declined 7% YoY in Q4; operating EBITDA negative $7M.
  • Price headwinds: Q4 organic sales +7% was volume‑led (+8%) with a 1% price decline; management also flagged a ~1% price headwind for 2025.

Transcript

Operator (participant)

Thank you for standing by, and Welcome to the DuPont Fourth Quarter 2024 Earnings Conference Call. All lines have been placed on mute to prevent any background noise. After the speaker's remarks, there will be a question-and-answer session. If you would like to ask a question during this time, simply press star, followed by the number one on your telephone keypad. If you would like to withdraw your question, again, press the star one. Thank you. I'd now like to turn the call over to Chris Mecray. You may begin.

Chris Mecray (VP of Investor Relations)

Good morning, and thank you for joining us for DuPont's Fourth Quarter and Full Year 2024 Financial Results Conference Call. Joining me today are Ed Breen, Executive Chairman, Lori Koch, Chief Executive Officer, and Antonella Franzen, Chief Financial Officer. We have prepared slides to supplement our remarks, which are posted on DuPont's website under the Investor Relations tab and through the webcast link. Please read the forward-looking statement disclaimer contained in the slides. During this call, we'll make forward-looking statements regarding our expectations or predictions about the future. Because these statements are based on current assumptions and factors that involve risks and uncertainties, our actual performance and results may differ materially from our forward-looking statements. Our Form 10-K, as updated by our current and periodic reports, includes detailed discussion of principal risks and uncertainties which may cause such differences.

Unless otherwise specified, all historical financial measures presented today are on a continuing operations basis and exclude significant items. We will also refer to other non-GAAP measures. A reconciliation of the most directly comparable GAAP financial measures is included in our press release and presentation materials and has been posted to DuPont's Investor Relations website. I'll now turn the call over to Lori, who will begin on Slide 3.

Lori Koch (CEO)

Good morning, everyone, and thanks for joining our Fourth Quarter Call. Earlier today, we reported solid quarterly results to close out a strong year of performance. Fourth Quarter sales grew 7%, including another consecutive quarter of double-digit organic growth in E&I, and highlighted by a return to organic growth in W&P of 6%. We showed strong operating leverage as operating EBITDA of $807 million increased 13% year-over-year, operating EBITDA margin of 26.1% expanded 140 basis points, and adjusted EPS of $1.13 grew 30% from the prior year. From an end-market view, Fourth Quarter saw continued strong demand within Electronics, driven by the ongoing transition to advanced nodes and related AI-enabling technologies. Further improvement in healthcare markets resulted in a return to volume growth for both our medical packaging and biopharma products, which both grew at double-digit rates.

Additionally, we continued to see growth acceleration in water in the quarter, with 4% sequential sales lift and an 11% year-over-year increase. Looking back at full-year financial performance, volume growth of 2% was solid and grew as the year went on, culminating in 8% growth for the fourth quarter. This, combined with operational discipline and productivity actions, was key to our earnings growth and resulted in strong incrementals and margin improvements. Coupling improved segment earnings with the benefit of a reduced share count led to a robust 17% growth in Adjusted EPS. Working capital optimization, which has been another key operating priority for the team, helped drive strong cash generation with Transaction-Adjusted Free Cash Flow conversion of 105%. I'd like to thank the entire DuPont team for all their hard work and dedication to achieve these results.

Turning to Slide 4, I will cover our key priorities for 2025: organic growth, operational execution, and portfolio management. Starting with the top line, as mentioned, we saw volume growth improvement in both E&I and W&P as we progressed through this past year. Looking into 2025, we expect further acceleration in volume growth, targeting mid-single-digit organic sales growth for the total company. To enable this, we will continue focusing on optimizing our growth opportunities within each business, which includes both continued investment and innovation, as well as driving commercial excellence initiatives, including strategic marketing and sales effectiveness activities. To ensure success, we recently hired a Chief Commercial Officer to drive consistent execution across all of our businesses. Additionally, our businesses continue to focus on driving operational excellence.

We are entering our fourth year of driving an enhanced focus on OpEx, and our profitability continues to benefit from the expanded toolkit and discipline rollout across the organization. Coupling our standard OpEx framework with steady investments in digital tools will lead to continued improvement in financial performance. Finally, regarding portfolio management, we announced last month that we are targeting November 1st of this year for the intended spinoff of the electronics business, which is nicely accelerated from the initial timeframe of 18-24 months. We remain excited about the sizable shareholder value creation opportunity from creating a leading pure-play electronics company. We continue to make progress towards establishing the future boards for electronics and DuPont and remain on track to be able to announce new board members as well as executive leadership for the future electronics company by the end of the first quarter.

We continue to see the excitement building internally and externally, and I look forward to updating you in the coming months. With that, I'll turn it over to Antonella to cover the financial results and outlook in detail.

Antonella Franzen (SVP and CFO)

Thanks, Lori, and good morning, everyone. We are pleased with the solid finish to a strong year of financial performance. End-market recovery and improved volumes have been the primary driver of our accelerated sales and earnings growth throughout 2024, and our teams have also continued to execute well on our operational excellence initiatives, including both enhanced productivity and the previously announced cost actions. I look forward to the continued momentum that we are carrying into 2025. But first, I'll cover our fourth quarter financial highlights in further detail beginning on Slide 5. Net sales of $3.1 billion increased 7% versus the year-ago period, as an 8% increase in volume was slightly offset by a 1% decrease in price. Currency and portfolio were both flat. Higher volume was led by continued strong demand in electronics end markets, with Semi and Interconnect Solutions both up double digits.

Further acceleration in Water Solutions yielding double-digit volume gains and a return to year-over-year growth in both Safety Solutions and Industrial Solutions. On a segment view, E&I and W&P organic sales grew 10% and 6% respectively. Organic sales in corporate declined 7% versus the year-ago period. From a regional perspective, Asia-Pacific delivered 11% organic sales growth year-over-year, including another strong quarter in China, where organic sales also increased 11% due to continued strength in electronics markets and acceleration in water. Organic sales were up 5% in North America and up 1% in Europe. Fourth quarter Operating EBITDA of $807 million increased 13% versus the year-ago period, as volume gains, the benefit of higher production rates, and savings from restructuring actions were partially offset by higher variable compensation. Operating EBITDA margin during the quarter of 26.1% increased 140 basis points year-over-year.

Fourth quarter cash generation was strong, reflecting a continued working capital discipline across the businesses. On a continuing operations basis, cash flow from operations of $564 million, CapEx of $161 million, and $52 million of separation-related transaction cost payments resulted in transaction-adjusted free cash flow of $455 million and related conversion of 96%. As Lori mentioned earlier, 2024 was a strong year for cash performance, with transaction-adjusted free cash flow of $1.8 billion and related conversion of 105%. Turning to Slide 6, adjusted EPS for the quarter of $1.13 per share increased 30% from $0.87 in the year-ago period. Higher segment earnings of $0.17, as well as below-the-line benefits totaling $0.09, from a combination of lower share count, tax rate, and foreign exchange losses, drove the year-over-year increase. Turning to segment results, beginning with E&I on Slide 7.

E&I's fourth quarter net sales of $1.5 billion increased 11% versus the year-ago period, on organic sales growth of 10% and favorable portfolio impact of 1%, reflecting the Donatelle acquisition. Organic sales growth of 10% reflects an 11% increase in volume, slightly offset by a 1% decrease in price. At the line-of-business level, organic sales for semi were up low teens on continued semiconductor demand recovery driven by AI technology applications. Semi demand continues to be notably strong in China, with year-over-year growth of about 40% during the quarter. Given elevated levels of growth throughout 2024, we currently anticipate relatively flat semi sales in China for 2025, though overall organic growth in semi is expected to be up 6% to 7% for the full year.

Interconnect Solutions posted another quarter of strong results, with organic sales up low double digits, reflecting broad-based end-market strength, additional share gains, and continued volume benefits from AI-driven technology ramps. Industrial Solutions returned to organic growth in the quarter, with organic sales up mid-single digits due to improved demand for biopharma within healthcare and continued strength in printing and packaging applications. Operating EBITDA for E&I of $457 million was up 21% versus the year-ago period, on volume gains, the benefit of higher production rates, savings from restructuring actions, and a $13 million gain related to a technology license agreement, which was contemplated in our guidance. The year-over-year increase is partially offset by higher variable compensation. Operating EBITDA margin during the quarter was 30.3%, up 250 basis points versus the year-ago period. For the full year, E&I net sales of $5.9 billion increased 11%, with 6% organic sales growth.

For the full year, operating EBITDA of $1.7 billion increased 17%, with operating EBITDA margin of 29%, up 140 basis points from the prior year. Turning to Slide 8, W&P Fourth Quarter net sales of $1.4 billion increased 6% versus the year-ago period due to an 8% increase in volume, partially offset by a 2% decrease in price. Safety Solutions returned to year-over-year growth as organic sales were up high single digits, reflecting continued improvement in healthcare markets, evidenced by medical packaging sales lift for three consecutive quarters, including a 6% increase from Q3. Shelter Solutions sales were flat on an organic basis, with headwinds in North America construction markets offset by growth and repair and remodel demand. Within Water Solutions, sales were up low double digits on an organic basis, driven by continued broad-based volume recovery.

On a sequential basis, Water Solutions sales also increased for a third straight quarter, with sales up 4% from Q3. Operating EBITDA for W&P during the quarter of $357 million was up 14% versus the year-ago period, as volume gains and savings from restructuring actions were partially offset by higher variable compensation and the absence of about $25 million of discrete item benefits recorded in the prior year. Operating EBITDA margin during the quarter was 26.3%, up 170 basis points from the year-ago period. For the full year, W&P generated net sales of $5.4 billion, with operating EBITDA of $1.4 billion. Operating EBITDA margin for the full year of 25.1% increased 50 basis points. Turning to Slide 9, which outlines our first quarter 2025 and Full Year guidance expectations.

At a consolidated level for the first quarter, we estimate net sales of about $3.025 billion, operating EBITDA of about $760 million, and adjusted EPS of $0.95 per share. Our first quarter net sales guidance assumes mid-single digit organic growth and a currency headwind of about 1.5% versus the first quarter of 2024. We expect a more normal seasonal progression into the second quarter, with a sequential sales lift of about 6%-7% from the first quarter. For the full year 2025, we estimate consolidated net sales of $12.8-$12.9 billion, operating EBITDA of $3.325-$3.375 billion, and adjusted EPS of $4.30-$4.40 per share. Our full year consolidated net sales guidance assumes mid-single digit organic growth and a currency headwind of about 1%.

Our EPS estimate includes a headwind from below-the-line items totaling $0.10, related primarily to an assumed 1% higher tax rate versus this past year. I would also like to highlight that we plan on realigning our segment reporting structure in the first quarter in advance of the intended separation of electronics later this year. We will begin reporting under this new structure when we release our first quarter 2025 results. The businesses comprising the future Electronics Company will be reported as the Electronics Co-segment, while the businesses that will remain with DuPont will be reported as the Industrials Co-segment. We are providing historical segment information reflecting these realignments for comparison purposes, which you can find in the earnings presentation accompanying today's call. For the New Electronics Co-segment, we expect full year 2025 organic sales growth in the 6%-7% range.

This assumed growth is expected to be driven by ongoing strength within semi, fueled by continued AI adoptions and transition to advanced nodes, as well as the impact from more normalized sales in China, as previously mentioned. In Interconnect Solutions, we expect continued growth driven by improved sentiment within consumer electronics and refresh cycles in support of AI adoption. For the new Industrial Co-segment, we expect full year 2025 organic sales growth in the 3%-4% range. Within healthcare markets, we expect growth acceleration in medical devices, along with continued stabilization for medical packaging applications and in biopharma markets. In water, we expect a strong year for the business with continued volume growth year-over-year, and we expect stable demand within markets served by our remaining industrial-based product lines.

With that, we are pleased to take your questions, and let me turn it back to the operator to open the Q&A.

Operator (participant)

Thank you. We will now begin the question and answer session. If you would like to ask a question, please press star one on your telephone keypad to raise your hand and join the queue. If you would like to withdraw your question, simply press star one again. We ask that you please limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. Your first question today comes from the line of Scott Davis from Melius Research. Your line is open.

Scott Davis (Chairman and CEO)

Hey, good morning, everybody. Lori, Antonella, Chris, Ed.

Lori Koch (CEO)

Good morning, Scott.

Scott Davis (Chairman and CEO)

You guys talked—you referenced AI-related revenues a few times in the call. Is there any—can you size that for us at all and kind of give us a sense of what kind of growth rates you've seen there?

Lori Koch (CEO)

Yeah, Scott, we saw really nice growth this year, up about 30% in the AI-related sales. We're up over $300 million now. And so we continue to expect that to be a key piece of the growth for the electronics co as we move to separate them towards the end of the year.

Scott Davis (Chairman and CEO)

Okay. That's helpful. And then the incremental margins, 47% or so is what I was calculating, is pretty strong. But you've got a little bit of price, perhaps, headwind in front of you. How do you think about incrementals in 2025 and the sustainability, kind of puts and takes of cost coming back? And I know there's going to be some noise in the transition here, but do you think there's an opportunity to keep those incrementals above historic levels, or do you see some cost coming back and some price issues?

Lori Koch (CEO)

Yeah. In 2024, we saw incrementals kind of in the low to mid-60s, and we have them, as you had mentioned, in the mid-40s in 2025. So again, very strong. We had mentioned that we do have a 1% assumed price headwind in 2025 versus 2024, but net between that and inflation and absorption tailwinds, we see that about neutral on the bottom line. So we'll share a lot more about margin projections when we do Investor Day later in the fall, but we continue to expect to see really nice margins moving across both New DuPont and electronics.

Scott Davis (Chairman and CEO)

Okay. Congrats on the year. Best of luck, guys. We'll see you.

Lori Koch (CEO)

Thanks.

Edward Breen (Executive chairman)

Thanks, Scott.

Operator (participant)

Your next question comes from the line of John McNulty from BMO Capital Markets. Your line is open.

John McNulty (Chemicals Analyst)

Yeah, thanks for taking my question. So maybe just a question on water. Obviously, there were some easy comps there, but it also seems like it really continued even on a sequential basis. Can you help us to think about some of the drivers that you're seeing there that are really pushing that growth and how we should be thinking about them as we go through 2025?

Lori Koch (CEO)

Yeah, we did see really nice recovery. So it was up about 11% year-over-year organic in the fourth quarter, and we see about mid to high single-digit organic growth overall in 2025 for water. So a lot of it really is just around the secular tailwinds in the water space, so the access to clean water. We see nice growth across all key technologies. We are the one player within the space that has all the four key technologies when it comes to filtration. And there's some incremental opportunities, not necessarily in 2025, but longer term around both DLE, so direct lithium extraction within the battery space, and then also some PFAS opportunity as well.

John McNulty (Chemicals Analyst)

Got it. Okay. Thanks for the color on that. And then with regard to semis, it looks like there's a number of node transitions, kind of especially rolling in in the second half of 2025. Can you help us to think about what that means for the cadence of growth in the Semi-Tech platform for you as we look through 2025?

Lori Koch (CEO)

Yeah. So we had mentioned for overall new electronics growth, it'll be about 6%-7% organic growth. That's about even between both sides of it, so between semi and ICS. Q1, just given the favorable comp, will be the highest growth. We said low double digits, I believe, for the new electronics. And then so it'll moderate as the year goes on, but again, really nice overall 6%-7% on top of a really strong year in 2024.

John McNulty (Chemicals Analyst)

Great. Thanks very much for the color.

Operator (participant)

Your next question comes from a line of Steve Tusa from JPMorgan. Your line is open.

Steve Toussaint (Research Analyst)

Hey, good morning.

Edward Breen (Executive chairman)

Morning.

Lori Koch (CEO)

Morning, Steve.

Steve Toussaint (Research Analyst)

Did you see any kind of pull forward in demand with regards to any concerns around tariffs or new administration in the fourth quarter?

Antonella Franzen (SVP and CFO)

Hey, Steve, it's Antonella. We've talked about in the last couple of quarters that we saw. I would call it more of pre-buy in the semi space related to a lot of the new fabs that have started up during the course of the year. So you heard us talk about that in Q2 and Q3. We would estimate that in Q4 it was probably around $20 million or so. I would say we would attribute it more to the new fab startups versus tariffs per se, but there could have been a little bit of it related to the tariffs coming in 2025 as well.

Steve Toussaint (Research Analyst)

Okay. And then I think there was a modest gain in the electronics segment. I'm not sure if you fleshed that out. How big was that?

Antonella Franzen (SVP and CFO)

Yeah. So we commented on that in our prepared remarks. It was $13 million, and it was included in the guidance when we provided it on the third quarter call.

Steve Toussaint (Research Analyst)

Oh, okay. Got it. All right. Thanks a lot.

Operator (participant)

Your next question comes from a line of Jeff Sprague from Vertical Research Partners. Your line is open.

Jeffrey Sprague (Founder and Managing Partner)

Hey, thanks. Good morning, everyone. Sorry if I missed just at the beginning. I was also about 10 minutes late getting on. Just on the spin and the timing now, I feel that's a pretty hard lock on November 1 and maybe any update on just kind of the cost to separate and the kind of stand-up, stand-alone costs associated with electronics. Again, apologize if you addressed that.

Antonella Franzen (SVP and CFO)

Hey, Jeff. It's Antonella. So yes, timing is pretty locked in. I would say the team has clearly done a lot of work to accelerate the timeline. We've had a lot of good practice in the organization in doing this. So we have a really good plan in place, and things are progressing as expected. In terms of a couple of updates, so our separation costs, we had said would be around $700 million.

We do expect that to be a little less than that as we move forward now, given that water will remain in the DuPont portfolio. But I would just be mindful that a lot of things that kind of went into that will still continue to happen, whether it was one separation or two separations. In terms of the synergies, we initially quoted that as around $60 million. Now we would expect that that would be closer to $40 million.

Jeffrey Sprague (Founder and Managing Partner)

Great. And would that also encompass sort of the stranded costs? That $40 million, is that sort of the public company cost for new electronics co, separate and apart from sort of stranded that you need to get after? Could you just kind of put a finer point on that?

Antonella Franzen (SVP and CFO)

Sure. So when you kind of take a look at our synergies, it is predominantly standing up two public companies. So when you kind of compare where our corporate costs are today versus where we expect corporate costs to be in the future, that is a big bulk of it. There's a little bit of it that is in the businesses. As we've said before, it does not include per se stranded costs, but I would tell you that at this point, based upon all the work that we've been doing in terms of getting the two organizations ready for day one and kind of having a cost structure that's fit for purpose in terms of their size, we do not expect that to be very material.

Jeffrey Sprague (Founder and Managing Partner)

Great. Thank you.

Antonella Franzen (SVP and CFO)

No problem.

Operator (participant)

Your next question comes from a line of Chris Parkinson from Wolfe Research. Your line is open.

Chris Parkinson (Managing Director and Senior Research Analyst)

Great. Thank you so much. Just going back to the water and protection, you hit on this towards the end of your prepared remarks, but could you just give us a little bit more perspective on how you see things shaping up across safety, shelter, and water throughout 2025, as well as just kind of the key considerations that we should be looking at in terms of potential market outperformance? Thank you so much.

Lori Koch (CEO)

Yeah. So I'll answer your question in the new form, given that's how we're going to report in 2025. So for the three pieces within the new DuPont, the water and healthcare will be about 40% of the portfolio, and we expect them to have nice mid to high single-digit growth organically in 2025. So a continued improvement coming off of the bottom that we saw throughout 2024.

So we had noted medical packaging got better every quarter, and we exited a really nice position from 2024. The same with water. So water improved kind of every quarter, and we exited in a nice position. And we see the de-stocking that we had telegraphed early in 2024 essentially complete. Then the remaining portion of the portfolio probably will be around the low single-digit growth. So that would encompass the aramids business, the shelter business, and then the businesses that we picked up from the industrial solutions business within electronics. So overall, nice 3%-4% organic, definitely outsized within the healthcare and the water portion.

Chris Parkinson (Managing Director and Senior Research Analyst)

Got it. And just as a quick follow-up, just on the interconnect side, you mentioned obviously some AI-driven tech benefits, but could you just hit on kind of the key drivers of the remainder of the portfolio and just any differences based on geography as well? Thank you so much.

Lori Koch (CEO)

Yeah. Within electronics, within the interconnect business, we had mentioned the AI around the packaging space. There's also a lot of upside that we saw in 2024 and continue to expect in 2025 on the Laird. So this was the business that we had acquired back in 2021. It's a lot around thermal management. So we're looking as the chips get smaller and then have more intent for us to be able to drive a lot of outperformance on the Laird side. So that was key to the growth before and expected to be strong again this year.

Chris Parkinson (Managing Director and Senior Research Analyst)

Great color. Thank you.

Operator (participant)

Your next question comes from a line of Josh Spector from UBS Financial. Your line is open.

Joshua Spector (Executive Director and Senior Equity Analyst)

Yeah. Hi, good morning. I wanted to ask on the industrials co guidance, but specifically on first quarter versus the year. So in your first quarter, it seems like you're guiding for low single-digit growth. You just did mid-single-digit growth in fourth quarter, and you have a pretty easy comp in first quarter. So what am I missing about why that growth shouldn't be higher in first quarter as it relates to the year?

Lori Koch (CEO)

Yeah. So the largest piece is within the automotive portion of new DuPont. So overall, last year was still robust for them in Q1 from both the automotive side of the adhesive piece as well as within Kevlar within the business. So one of them is a comp, a little bit less of a phase-up comp than maybe what you would have expected. Also, if you look at the builds, you're going to go year-over-year and quarter compare, and then you're going to go sequentially. But the builds in Q1 2025 are expected to be down 4% year-over-year than what they were in Q4 2024. So that would meet the expectations. Otherwise, everything else is generally the same between the two quarters.

Joshua Spector (Executive Director and Senior Equity Analyst)

Okay. Thanks for that, and if I could just follow up on cash deployment. You guys haven't bought back stock in about three quarters now. Your leverage is low. I understand you're going through everything with splits, but it seems to be an opportunity for you to deploy some cash and a buyback. So why isn't that something that we're doing now?

Antonella Franzen (SVP and CFO)

Yeah. So as we mentioned in some prior calls, we do not plan on doing any more share buyback until at least the moment of the separation. I would just be mindful. Obviously, there are a lot of cash costs related to the separation. So that's where our cash will be deployed in the near term.

Joshua Spector (Executive Director and Senior Equity Analyst)

Okay. Thank you.

Operator (participant)

Your next question comes from a line of Patrick Cunningham from Citi. Your line is open.

Patrick Cunningham (Vice President and Senior Equity Analyst)

Hi, good morning. The pro forma performance seemed to imply the EBITDA margin profile, the corporate retained businesses, maybe high teens, low 20s. I mean, would you characterize these as normal levels? And does it change maybe what the long-term margin target would be for the industrials co versus W&P?

Lori Koch (CEO)

Yes, So you're right. The businesses that are coming into the new DuPont, so the businesses that were in corporate M&M and then the businesses that were in the industrial portion of E&I had a lower overall margin profile than the heritage W&P businesses. And so from the corporate M&M businesses that came in, if you caught it right, they were kind of in the high teens, maybe low 20s. I would say that that benchmark level, if you look to the other existing players, probably you could put the above. And then the businesses that we picked up from the industrial business, a lot of that would be the Spectrum piece that came in through acquisition. And when we had done that acquisition, we said the margins were in the low 20s. So we're right sitting at 23%-24% in 2024 for industrials co.

We'll look to continue to drive productivity and mix enrichment. And then, as mentioned earlier in the call, we'll get into more of the margin targets that we would expect for each of the two new companies that they're investing in in the fall.

Patrick Cunningham (Vice President and Senior Equity Analyst)

Great. Thank you. And apologies if I missed this, but is there any update on Kalrez? How is that business performing? We had a few quarters of sharp de-stocking. Should we expect some rebound there in 2025 helping underpin some of the strong growth rates in the electronics business?

Lori Koch (CEO)

Yeah. I would say mid-year 2025 is the one business that we have in the portfolio that hasn't quite gotten through its de-stock yet. So we're targeting mid-year 2025 for that to get back to more normal growth levels.

Patrick Cunningham (Vice President and Senior Equity Analyst)

Thank you so much.

Operator (participant)

Your next question comes from a line of Aleksey Yefremov from KeyBank Capital Markets. Your line is open.

Aleksey Yefremov (Managing Director and Equity Research Analyst)

Thank you. Good morning, everyone. How are you thinking about industrials portfolio now that you decided to keep the water business? Any further divestments, or do you see any interesting bolt-ons here?

Lori Koch (CEO)

Yeah. I would say it's both. I mean, as we continue to look at the remaining core portfolio and look to take flexibility out and get it more towards the simplified businesses, more exposed to high growth secular end markets, you'll continue to see portfolio activity on the new DuPont side. And then we'll look to invest in M&A primarily around the healthcare and the water business as we look to outsize our exposure there. So we'll come out at about 40% of sales in the healthcare and water, and we'll look to lift that through both M&A and also growth as we move forward.

Aleksey Yefremov (Managing Director and Equity Research Analyst)

Great. Thank you. And then a follow-up on electronics. Do you have an assumption for underlying market growth in semis and interconnect or target outgrowth for each of these segments in 2025?

Lori Koch (CEO)

Yeah. So in 2025, we see MSI of around mid-single digits. And again, we had talked through 2024 with a little bit disconnected with respect to wafer starts and wafer consumption because of the inventory levels that were consumed on the chip side. So we see our view of MSI at around 6% growth. We see overall semi-fab utilization in the high 70s in 2025. And then on the ICS side, kind of the combination of PCB and smartphones, we see in the mid-single digit range.

Aleksey Yefremov (Managing Director and Equity Research Analyst)

Thanks a lot.

Operator (participant)

Your next question comes from a line of John Roberts from Mizuho. Your line is open.

John Roberts (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)

Thank you. Congrats on a good quarter. Are you planning to change the name of industrial co and any progress on industry reclassification?

Lori Koch (CEO)

Yeah. So I'll do the name. So industrial co will be DuPont, and I'll send it over to Antonella on the reclassification.

Antonella Franzen (SVP and CFO)

Yeah. So we're doing some work around the reclassification, as we talked about before. We're clearly intent on getting that move from the chemical classification to an industrial classification. The change was not necessarily being made until the separation is complete, but we are working on that, and that is clearly our intent as to where we should be and where we need to be.

John Roberts (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)

And then secondly, are you planning on keeping water separate within industrial co that would preserve the option for a spin later on if that's what you wanted to do?

Antonella Franzen (SVP and CFO)

So water will be reported as a segment in new DuPont. I think that's probably the question that you're asking. So water would be a segment. We have to clarify all of this, but you can imagine we'll want to highlight water and healthcare getting the growth profile. So those would be segments within the new portfolio.

John Roberts (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)

Thank you.

Operator (participant)

Your next question comes from a line of Michael Leithead from Barclays. Your line is open.

Michael Leithead (Director in Equity Research)

Great. Thank you. Good morning, team. For the electronics, are we 100% headed for a spin here in November, or is there any chance of merging or selling these assets before then?

Lori Koch (CEO)

Yes. We're headed towards a spin.

Michael Leithead (Director in Equity Research)

Okay. And then I apologize if I missed it.

Edward Breen (Executive chairman)

Yeah. We'll announce management teams before the end of this quarter, and we're pretty set with a full board slate for electronics, which we'll also be announcing before the end of the quarter.

Michael Leithead (Director in Equity Research)

Great. Thank you Ed. And I apologize if I missed this, but did you announce who your new chief commercial officer will be, and will they stay with Industrials Co., I presume?

Lori Koch (CEO)

He will stay with Industrials Co. His name is Lakshmanan V., joining us from SKF next week.

Michael Leithead (Director in Equity Research)

Great. Thank you.

Operator (participant)

Your next question comes from a line of David Begleiter from Deutsche Bank. Your line is open.

David Begleiter (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)

Thank you. Lori, in semis, you referenced flat sales in China in 2025. Can you give a little more color as to why that's happening and just how big is China for the entire semi tech business? Thank you.

Lori Koch (CEO)

Yeah. So it's more around the normalization of the volume growth versus demand. So in 2024, in China for semi, we saw 40% volume growth. So as I had mentioned, it probably overall, we saw about $16 million worth of pre-buy activity. So normalizing that against 2025 is why we kind of see a flat volume within China for semi. Overall, semi China is about a $600 million market. About two-thirds of it is local Chinese semi producers, and the rest are the multinationals that produce within China.

David Begleiter (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)

And how much of your business is semi tech is China?

Lori Koch (CEO)

That's the $600 million. Oh, thanks. Sorry about that. So about 30% is China.

David Begleiter (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)

Got it. And just on North American construction, any signs of progress in either resi or commercial? Thank you.

Antonella Franzen (SVP and CFO)

When you actually take a look at our shelter business, what I would say is we've actually fared pretty well given the environment that we're in. So as we talked about in the fourth quarter, we did see a little bit of softness on both the resi and non-resi side being offset by some growth in repair and remodel. And kind of as we go forward, we are currently anticipating, I would say, low single digit growth in that business for 2025.

David Begleiter (Managing Director and Senior Equity Research Analyst)

Thank you.

Operator (participant)

Your next question comes from a line of Vincent Andrews from Morgan Stanley. Your line is open.

Vincent Andrews (Managing Director and Senior Equity Analyst)

Thank you. I wanted to follow up on the divestitures discussion, and I'm just wondering, with water now staying within industrials co, is there a window between now and spin where you can get some assets out of the business without having to assign pro rata PFAS liabilities to them? And if you don't get that done before November 1, presumably they would have to have liabilities assigned thereafter. And is November 1 really the hard date on that?

Lori Koch (CEO)

Yeah. So technically, you could do a divestiture between now and November 1 and stay above the $2.9 billion threshold, and then therefore not have to assign PFOA. We're obviously fully focused on getting the electronics separation out November 1. And at that point, we'll comply with the side letter and pro rata distribute the PFOA side letter agreement between new electronics and DuPont.

Vincent Andrews (Managing Director and Senior Equity Analyst)

Okay. And then just on free cash flow for 2025, obviously, you're going to have spin costs and other things that are going to be sort of clouding the underlying performance. So could you give us a sense of you obviously had excellent conversion this year? What do you think 2025 might look like?

Antonella Franzen (SVP and CFO)

So as we look to 2025 in our free cash flow conversion, we would expect it to be greater than 90%, which is kind of the number that we've been focusing on. We've had really good conversion this year. We were at 105%. We did have a nice benefit of a lot of the practices we're putting in place related to working capital that helped us this year. As we go into next year and the growth that we're kind of expecting on both the electronics co side and the industrials co side, we will have some working capital usage. But again, we feel good that we'll be above the 90% conversion, excluding clearly all the transaction costs, which is how we've been reporting our free cash flow over the last couple of quarters.

Vincent Andrews (Managing Director and Senior Equity Analyst)

Perfect. Thanks very much.

Operator (participant)

Your next question comes from a line of Mike Sison from Wells Fargo. Your line is open.

Michael Sison (Senior Chemicals Analyst)

Hey, good morning. Nice quarter. So organic growth in industrial co in the fourth quarter, as well as your outlook in the first quarter, appears pretty differentiated relative to traditional chemical companies where growth seems to be pretty negative. So I suspect that helps your cause in getting that designation change. But maybe can you remind us of what other metrics, margins, returns on capital, or sort of just make the case why this should be more of a multi-industrial business than a chemical business?

Lori Koch (CEO)

Yeah. No. I mean, obviously, our growth, we would exit 2024 and expect in 2025. And then even the margin profile is significantly different than what you would see on the chemical side, and even just the volatility. We don't have the swings in pricing that you may see with respect to utilization levels in the commodity chemical side as well. So any support that we can get in our endeavors from both the buying and the sell side to be able to get that GICS change would be really helpful because we do believe it's fundamental to how we are defining the new company. We'll target similar leverage profiles to the other multi-industrials. We'll have very strong margin profiles similar to the multi-industrials and a very similar growth trajectory.

Edward Breen (Executive chairman)

And by the way, the last big piece we divested, which was the N&B business, the nutritionals, was really the last vestige of a chemical business within the portfolio. So we actively work hard for, I think, seven years now to get to more of a multi-industrial company and out of the chemical space. So hopefully, good luck with changing the code.

Michael Sison (Senior Chemicals Analyst)

Sounds good. And then just a quick follow-up. I think in the past, you talked about advanced nodes as a percent of electronics, which I assume includes AI-related sales. Can you remind us how big, I guess, advanced nodes are now for semi tech and interconnect, and then maybe what the growth rate for that subset will be in 2025?

Lori Koch (CEO)

Yeah. So advanced nodes are about 40% of the semi portfolio. Their growth, obviously, would be higher than the average 6-7 that we had mentioned earlier in the call. We had said that for the AI-specific exposure, we saw 30% growth within the semi business. So you would expect a nice outperformance in the advances versus the more mature nodes.

Michael Sison (Senior Chemicals Analyst)

Okay. Thank you.

Operator (participant)

Your next question comes from a line of Frank Mitsch from Fermium Research. Your line is open.

Frank Mitsch (President)

Good morning, and let me echo the congrats on the quarter. You basically hit the trifecta in terms of exceeding guidance on sales, EBITDA, and EPS from what you provided in the early part of November. So I'm curious as to what went right or what exceeded your expectations in November and December.

Lori Koch (CEO)

Yeah. So I'll take that again, fellow. So when you look at the electronics space, I would say that's the one that really drove the beat. We did continue to have strong demand. And as we talked about a little bit earlier, we did have some pre-buy in there as well. I think the other important thing to mention when you kind of take a look at Q4 is not only did we exceed our expectations as we set them, but we also, I would say, covered incremental pressure from changes in foreign currency exchange rates during the quarter as well.

But other areas, so electronics was clearly a standout, but as we talked about, the water business was even a little bit better than we expected on a sequential basis. Of course, the Tyvek medical packaging business was slightly better than we expected. Biopharma was actually even a little bit better as well. The only area that I would say we kind of expected is that auto would be softer, and it was. Shelter was pretty much in line. So from an operations perspective, that's how I would characterize it. Now, when you take a look at total EPS, the other factor that we clearly had that drove the beat was the tax rate in Q4 was a bit lower than we had anticipated. So that's in the number as well relative to the fourth quarter.

We did talk about as we go into 2025, we do expect the tax rate to probably be about a point or so higher than where we kind of landed this year.

Frank Mitsch (President)

Understood. As we sit here today in the early part of February, the segments that you thought were doing better, i.e., water, packaging, etc., has that continued at that pace? So the follow-through that you're seeing here in the early part of 2025?

Lori Koch (CEO)

Yes. It is playing out as you suspect.

Frank Mitsch (President)

All right. Thank you so much.

Operator (participant)

Your next question comes from a line of Arun Viswanathan from RBC Capital Markets. Your line is open.

Good morning. This is Adam on for Arun. Thanks for taking my question, and congratulations on the great quarter. I'd like to double-click on the cash a little bit. I know you said most of the cash deployment for the year is going to be related to transaction costs. Could you give us a sense on maybe the cadence of some of those costs? Are any of those going to linger into the fourth quarter or first quarter of next year? Are those mostly going to be advanced? Just thinking about when we could start thinking about resuming maybe cash deployment to other avenues.

Antonella Franzen (SVP and CFO)

Yeah. So what we talked about, our transaction costs are around $700 million. We expect them to be slightly less now that we are retaining the water business within the portfolio. I would be mindful that from a cash perspective, as you can see in the schedules attached to our press release, that cash out this year related to transaction costs was only $64 million. So a bulk of it is all sitting in 2025.

I would also be mindful there could be some costs related to debt as well. That's in addition to those transaction costs, which is why the focus in 2025 is all around getting the separation done and kind of putting a majority of all those costs behind us. I mean, there could be a little bit of trickling that goes into the following year, but a majority of it will be 2025.

Great. Thanks. And maybe if just we could quickly touch base, you mentioned healthcare and water assets potentially as targets for M&A going forward. Any additional color you can give there maybe on types of assets or parameters you'd use for the search? Thanks.

Lori Koch (CEO)

Yeah. So we have an active pipeline in both spaces. So we'll continue to look and see where we can pick up assets that would add to our portfolio. Within the water space, we would even broaden the aperture beyond just filtration and go into some of the other areas in order to be able to bulk up our exposure there. And within healthcare, you would expect a similar dynamic to what we've done with our last two acquisitions around Spectrum and Donatelle in the med device space. So bringing our capabilities to bear and adding new capabilities to the toolkit.

Operator (participant)

Your next question comes from a line of Laurence Alexander from Jefferies. Your line is open.

Laurence Alexander (Equity Analyst)

So good morning. Just wanted to follow up on the comments around the construction outlook. What specifically are you assuming for remodeling activity? And also, what's your assumption around FX?

Lori Koch (CEO)

So for remodeling within shelter, our expectation as we go into 2025 and what's built into our guidance is that that would be relatively flat on a year-over-year basis. Did you say FX, Laurence, for your last question?

Laurence Alexander (Equity Analyst)

Yeah. Yeah. Just currency FX. Yep.

Lori Koch (CEO)

Yeah. So we have about a 1.5% headwind in Q1 and then about a 1% headwind for the full year.

Laurence Alexander (Equity Analyst)

Perfect. Thank you.

Operator (participant)

Your final question comes from a line of Steve Byrne from Bank of America. Your line is open.

Steve Byrne (Managing Director in Equity Research)

Yes. Thank you. Lori, you mentioned the fourth water treatment technologies in your remarks. I was curious whether any of the revenue in the water business is a service component such as monitoring or maintaining those treatment technologies, and/or do you have an interest in adding a service component to that business to help your industrial customers reduce water usage? Is that part of your vision in that business?

Lori Koch (CEO)

We don't have any service revenue today in the portfolio, but we'll look broadly in the water space to be able to add to our exposure. So I would say services as well as other areas within the water landscape would be on the table.

Steve Byrne (Managing Director in Equity Research)

I'm just curious about price trends in your various Tyvek products. You sell them into construction, into packaging, into personal protection. How do those end markets differ in terms of price trends for those products?

Lori Koch (CEO)

Yeah. There's not really material deviations in price across all the different end markets within Tyvek. So it's a high value. We've got a lot of expertise in the Tyvek overall space, and we'll continue to benefit from the recovery on the medical packaging side as well.

Steve Byrne (Managing Director in Equity Research)

Okay. Thank you.

Operator (participant)

And that concludes our question and answer session. I will now turn the call back over to Chris Mecray for closing remarks.

Chris Mecray (VP of Investor Relations)

Thanks, everybody, for joining today. For your reference, a copy of our transcript will be posted on our website. This concludes the call. Thank you.

Operator (participant)

This concludes today's conference call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.