Las Vegas Sands - Earnings Call - Q2 2025

Executive Summary

• Q2 2025 delivered a clear beat: net revenue $3.18B vs S&P Global consensus $2.84B*, adjusted EPS $0.79 vs $0.53*, driven by record Marina Bay Sands (MBS) EBITDA and favorable hold; GAAP diluted EPS was $0.66.
• MBS posted adjusted property EBITDA of $768M (55.3% margin), with high rolling-chip hold adding ~$107M; management reiterated MBS can realistically reach ~$2.5B annual EBITDA.
• Macau adjusted property EBITDA was $566M; management acknowledged underperformance and a pivot to more aggressive customer reinvestment to regain share and EBITDA.
• Capital returns remain a catalyst: LVS repurchased $800M in Q2 (20M shares, avg $39.59), paid a $0.25 dividend, and increased SCL ownership to 73.4%.
• Strategic momentum: Singapore IR2 groundbreaking (US$8B ultra-luxury resort + 15k-seat arena), supporting long-term high-value tourism growth narrative.

What Went Well and What Went Wrong

What Went Well

• MBS record performance: $768M adjusted property EBITDA, 55.3% margin; rolling chip volume $8.95B with 5.26% win; non-rolling win 23.7% and ADR $888. CEO: “It’s unprecedented for a single building to perform like this… $2.5B is realistic and doable”.
• Londoner Macao ramp: net revenues up to $642M (+$198M YoY) and EBITDA $205M (+$102M YoY); stronger non-rolling and slot metrics; rooms ADR $259, RevPAR $242.
• Shareholder returns and balance sheet actions: $800M LVS buyback; $179M of Sands China stock purchases to 73.4% ownership; unrestricted cash $3.45B; total debt $15.68B; refinancings via $1.5B senior notes and term loan drawdowns.

What Went Wrong

• Macau underperformance vs internal goals: management “was not aggressive enough” on reinvestment; pivoted mid-quarter to increase promotional activity to regain share.
• Venetian, Plaza/Four Seasons margin pressures: Venetian EBITDA margin declined to 35.6% (-260 bps YoY); Plaza/Four Seasons margin 34.0% (-600 bps YoY) amid rolling-chip volatility.
• Sands China GAAP net income fell to $214M (vs $246M YoY); market remains highly competitive, with base mass spend per head lagging and non-Guangdong overnight visitation still below 2019 levels.

Transcript

Operator (participant)

Ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Sands Second Quarter 2025 earnings call. At this time, all participants have been placed on a listen-only mode, and we will open the floor for your questions and comments following the presentation. It is now my pleasure to turn the floor over to Mr. Daniel Briggs, Senior Vice President of Investor Relations at Sands. Sir, the floor is yours.

Daniel Briggs (SVP of Investor Relations)

Thank you. Joining the call today are Rob Goldstein, our Chairman and CEO; Patrick Dumont, our President and Chief Operating Officer; Dr. Wilfred Wong, Executive Vice Chairman of Sands China; and Grant Chum, CEO and President of Sands China and EVP of our Asia operation. Today's conference call will contain forward-looking statements. We will be making those statements under the Safe Harbor provision of federal securities laws. The language on forward-looking statements included in our press release and AK filing also applies to our comments made on the press today. The company's actual results may differ materially from the results reflected in those forward-looking statements. In addition, we will discuss non-GAAP measures. Reconciliations to the most comparable GAAP financial measure are included in our press release. We have posted an earnings presentation on our website. We will refer to that presentation during the call.

Finally, for the Q&A session, we ask those with interest to please post one question and one follow-up so we might allow everyone with interest the opportunity to participate. This presentation is being recorded. I'll now turn the call over to Rob.

Rob Goldstein (Chairman and CEO)

Thanks, Dan. Good afternoon, and thank you for joining us. Marina Bay Sands had a historic quarter, EBITDA of $768 million. We had forecasted that MBS could do $2.5 billion annually, and that may just happen this year. All the pieces are in place for this property to continue to perform. Mass gaming in probably $843 million, reflecting 97% growth in Q2 of 2019 and 40% higher than last year, same quarter. We are in the right place, the right time. Singapore is a very desirable destination, and our product is as good as it gets. It is difficult to find superlatives that describe the magnitude of this result. It is unprecedented for a single building to perform like this. Macau did $566 million of EBITDA for the quarter. We have underperformed in this market. We were not aggressive enough as it relates to customer reinvestment.

We believed our buildings would be enough. We were wrong. In the middle of the quarter, we changed our approach to enable us to increase market share and EBITDA. We will, however, be market-sensitive. Our assets remain the strongest in the world. The Londoner is open and moving towards our goal of $1 billion of annualized EBITDA. This new approach will create higher market share and EBITDA. At the same time, Macau's GGR accelerated this quarter in a very positive sign. Our goal is to remain Macau, and Macau's increased GGR and our strong assets will enable us to deliver improved results in the future. Let's turn the path to more common cash.

Patrick Dumont (President and COO)

Thanks, Rob. Macau EBITDA was $566 million. If we had held as expected in our rolling program, our EBITDA would have been lower by $7 million. When adjusted for a higher-than-expected hold in the rolling segment, our EBITDA margin for the Macau portfolio of properties would have been 31.3%, down 80 basis points compared to the second quarter of 2024. All 2,450 rooms and suites at the Londoner Grand were available for the last two months of the quarter. We are focused on delivering revenue and cash flow growth at the Londoner across the portfolio. Margin at The Venetian was 35.6%, while margin at The Plaza and Four Seasons was 34%, and margin at The Londoner was 31.9%. We expect growth in EBITDA as revenues grow and as we use our scale and product advantages together with targeted reinvestment to better address every market segment.

Now, turning to Singapore, Marina Bay Sands' EBITDA for the quarter was $768 million at a margin of 55.3%. If we had held as expected in our rolling program, our EBITDA would have been lower by $107 million. There will naturally be fluctuations in hold rate in any specific quarter driven by game mix and player preference. The record financial results of Marina Bay Sands reflect the impact of high-quality investment in market-leading product and the growth in high-value tourism. We believe we are still in the initial stages of realizing the benefits of our investments in Marina Bay Sands. Turning to our program to return capital to shareholders, we purchased $800 million of LVS stock during the quarter. We also paid our recurring dividend of $0.25 per share.

In addition, during the second quarter and in July, we purchased $179 million worth of SEL stock, increasing the company's ownership percentage of SEL to 73.4% as of today. We believe our purchase of LVS equity through our share repurchase program will be meaningfully accretive to the company and its shareholders over the long term. We look forward to continuing to utilize the company's share repurchase program to increase returns to shareholders. Thanks again for joining the call today. Now, let's take questions.

Operator (participant)

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, the floor is now open for questions. If you'd like to enter the queue to ask a question, please press star one on your telephone keypad now. If you're listening on speakerphone today, please pick up your handset to provide optimum sound quality. Also, we ask each participant to limit yourself to one question and one follow-up. Your first question is coming from Stephen Grambling from Morgan Stanley. Your line is live.

Stephen Grambling (Analyst)

Hey, thank you. Starting with Macau, I appreciate the acknowledgment of the shortfall somewhat there, but perhaps remind us of how you're thinking about turning the tide from a competitive standpoint and what KPIs or timing investors should maybe be thinking about in terms of seeing some of the market share go in the opposite direction.

Daniel Briggs (SVP of Investor Relations)

I'll take that, Stephen. Thank you for the question. I think around late April, we started to implement a more aggressive customer reinvestment program. I think we're seeing some encouraging initial results from those increased levels of reinvestment. As we get into May and June, the performance of SEL did improve. I think we will be continuing to adjust to the market conditions as and when necessary. We're also looking at opportunity for us to perform better from our smaller properties at The Parisian and Sands. Overall, the reception to The Londoner has been phenomenal. I think we're getting exceptional feedback from customers, and that's obviously growing nicely. This quarter is still just the start. All of the rooms, as Patrick referenced, were available from late April. We intend to continue to yield better at London and Macau. That property has much further to go.

The rest of the portfolio, we have to adjust our reinvestment levels according to the product and according to the individual product mix within the property. I think this process has only just started and will continue to see, I think, improvements in our results as we have done since May and June already. As you can see, we have a sequential improvement in our mass GGR market share of 8% for the quarter. We intend to drive better improvements and also hopefully recapture that market share in the coming quarters.

Patrick Dumont (President and COO)

I just want to say one thing, which is we're not where we want to be in Macau. We feel like we've made great investments. We have great product. And we believe we can grow EBITDA from here. We're very focused on it. We realize we have work to do in our reinvestment programs. We have things that we think we can do to be more competitive. And we're going to take some action. And we think we have an approach that we hope in the long run will create growth for us, both on the revenue and EBITDA side.

Stephen Grambling (Analyst)

Maybe one quick follow-up there, just on Macau. You said you're not where you want to be. What does that mean for capital allocation in that market? You used to have a pretty healthy dividend payout in that market as a percentage of free cash flow and earnings. I mean, should we be waiting for that turnaround to see you go back down that path? If you start paying out a dividend, is that prior kind of ratio the right way to think about it going forward?

Patrick Dumont (President and COO)

Yeah. I think the key thing is that we've always been focused on return of capital, particularly with the dividend at the SEL levels. I think as we see the CapEx roll off from The Londoner, which was a very meaningful investment that we feel will generate cash flow over the long-term, we're very happy to make it. That being said, hopefully our CapEx profile looks better in the future, as you can see from our CapEx expectations that we publish. When that happens, we'll look to return to increasing the dividend over time with the support of the SEL board. For us, we think that the best use of free capital there, other than investing in growth projects, is to return it to shareholders. You've seen how we've handled it in the past, and we'll look forward to doing that again in the future.

I think the levels will be based on our expectations of cash flow production going forward.

Stephen Grambling (Analyst)

Great. I'll yield to the floor. Thank you.

Operator (participant)

Thank you. Your next question is coming from Sean Kelly from Bank of America. Your line is live.

Sean Kelly (Service Delivery Consultant)

Hi, good afternoon, everyone. For Grant or whoever wants to take it, maybe we could just start in Macau. We did see across the market a bit of an improvement sequentially as the quarter went on in sort of overall market GGR. We've heard some mixed views about how either promotionally driven or VIP or event-driven that was. Hoping to get a little bit of color on just what's driving that improvement, how sustainable you think it is, and just broader health of the macro in the market right now.

Grant Chum (CEO and President)

Sure. Thanks for the question, Sean. I think the market clearly accelerated from May. June, obviously, was a standout performance, I think, helped by the calendar of events that prevailed in June. If you look at the segment breakdown, clearly, as you can see from the DICJ data as well, the VIP segment performed very well during the quarter and was up 26% year-on-year by our estimates. The non-rolling and then slot win also improved, and we're still in a high single-digit growth region for the quarter. I think there are some very encouraging signs. I think a mix between the improved customer density, but also the calendar of events and the offerings by the operators helping to drive the increased patronage as well.

Sean Kelly (Service Delivery Consultant)

Thanks for that, Grant. Maybe just to switch gears as a follow-up on Singapore. Rob, obviously, just incredible performance on the numbers. I mean, over $750 million from a single building in a single quarter is kind of hard to wrap your brain around. Can you give us your best stab at how we should think about maybe a run rate or sort of level of productivity for this property moving forward? Are we sustainably above $600 million of EBITDA a quarter? I know I think we have a good sense of what your stretch goal here is at $2.5 billion core, but just help us think about it to level set expectations given it was not a fairly easy comp on the mass market. Obviously, VIP, it can be volatile quarter to quarter on the handle side. Thanks.

Daniel Briggs (SVP of Investor Relations)

It's hard to predict, isn't it? I mean, I don't think we forecasted a $770 million quarter. I don't think we have a clear view of if this is sustainable, if this goes forward. It's proving, though, to be an amazing market, and we have the best assets by far in the market. How high is up and how deep is that well? I don't know. I mean, the truth is it'd be very difficult to dismiss these results and say, "We are now heading for $2.5 billion. Can we get to $2.6, $2.7? Can I continue?" As you know, it's very hard to predict. It's not an easy market. There's never been anything like this in the history of gaming anywhere. You realize this run rate is a $3 billion asset. We don't expect to do that now. I think, yeah, $2.5 billion is realistic and doable.

I would not want to venture a guess. I wouldn't want to dismiss the results because I don't want to overhype them and say every quarter is $750 million. I think that's unfair. Could we do $600 million plus or $650 million? Possibly, yeah. It depends on how strong the economy remains over there and the super high-end of the markets there. We dominate it, and we're kind of low in that place as far as the super high-end. It could be that we're looking at a whole new world in Singapore, and we'll have to wait and see. Time will tell. We just don't know because we didn't see this coming this early. We thought it would come later. It's here, so deal with it.

Sean Kelly (Service Delivery Consultant)

Thank you very much.

Operator (participant)

Thank you. Your next question is coming from Daniel Politzer from JPMorgan Chase. Your line is live.

Dan Politzer (Analyst)

Hey, good afternoon, everyone. Thanks for taking my question. I wanted to go back and circle on Macau, right? It seems like you guys are going to be more promotional. You're going to be focused on generating that EBITDA level. Is there a targeted EBITDA share that we should think about that kind of gets you to where you want to be, just looking at the historical 33%-35% EBITDA share you've had in that market? Or how should we kind of assess your strategy there and your KPIs for getting back to a level you think is appropriate?

Daniel Briggs (SVP of Investor Relations)

I think we should take this one step at a time. Our goal, we acknowledge our failure in believing our assets were so strong to get overcome this very different environment we're used to. We've now jumped the water. We're not leading the market. We're simply in the mix. And that's a good thing. I believe our assets, our short-term goal in the near quarters is to get we believe The Londoner and The Venetian can generate $2 billion between them. We believe that the Four Seasons do $300 million plus. I'd say The Parisian do $300 million plus. We think the Sands can do $100 million more because things are changing down at the peninsula. Our short-term goal, my goal, and I hope the team shares that, is that we can get the $2.7 billion run rate and come off the bottom here.

Because I think at $222, $223, we're just not performing well enough. We have the best assets. So three things. Acceleration of GGR is very helpful. And the most important thing by far is that. Second thing is we have the best and the biggest assets in that town, the most rooms, the best product. And third thing is we've come off our thinking. We've changed our thinking. So I'm hoping that Grant and team can see in the near future, you know, $600 million plus, $650 million down the road, and get us all back to the $2.6 billion-$2.7 billion range. That's our short-term goal. Beyond that, I have to wait and see how the market matures. Let's face it, if this market turns on the accelerate, this rate, we might see everyone doing much better. That'd be the best thing for all of Macau.

But I think it's very possible that happens in 2025, even 2026, 2027. So this is just our acknowledgment that we did not do a good enough job in that environment, and we're doing it now. And we have full faith in our team over there and our assets to perform and get us back in the game.

Dan Politzer (Analyst)

Got it. Thanks. That's helpful detail. Just to follow up on Singapore, is there any way to kind of wrap our heads around that sudden acceleration in those gaming volumes? Because it does seem like it was pretty concentrated on just the gaming side. I mean, we're trying to parse this out if there were new customers, maybe reception for the property improvements and new suite product, anything in the event calendar. Just trying to make sense of what's obviously typically the seasonally softest quarter of the year here to be so strong.

Patrick Dumont (President and COO)

I think a lot of it has to do with the product. We've spent the last couple of years reinvesting there significantly, not only in the physical product, but also in the service levels and the experience we can provide to people. The type of customer we have coming through the property and the nature where Singapore sits today, the growing economies, the wealth creation in Southeast Asia, it's all working. We have a very strong view on the future of Singapore. You can see by the type of customers that we have coming in that it's not only a very strong market, but it's very deep. For us, yes, there's new customers coming in. They're attracted by what we have on offer. They're coming to Singapore to do business. They're coming to Singapore for leisure travel. They're showing up at Marina Bay Sands and they're consuming. It's great.

It's a tribute to the team there and the investment that we've made and the way we execute. Really there, it's just a reflection of who's coming into the market and the fact that we provide experiences that are pretty unique. They're really taking advantage of it. We're a different building than we were five years ago. If you come and visit and you see it, you'll see the differences and realize that we attract a very high level of patron.

Daniel Briggs (SVP of Investor Relations)

I think you also have to give credit to the government of Singapore, which allows us to dream and excel. With Patrick referenced that building there last week for the groundbreaking of a member of our second building. It's an amazing place, but the market's also 4 billion Asian people at the very top end looking for an extraordinary experience and assets. We have them in spades over there. I think that the truth is that building is just the most desirable. There's super high-end, and there's lots of them. There's a lot of people coming to Singapore. Propensity to gamble, as you know, is high in that part of the world. We are just in a very fortunate position. I don't see it changing. I think we're in a very privileged position, and hopefully it goes on for quite a long time.

We are not one to forecast if it's $600 million, $700 million, $800 million a quarter. We know we're in the right place, right time with extraordinarily strong assets and excellent government support and a very strong market in terms of Singapore visitation.

Patrick Dumont (President and COO)

I think one other thing that's important to note is we started to see some inklings of this as we started finishing the renovation. Now everything's pretty much done. We are starting to see the results as we build customer experience and as they get to experience the property and see how it is to be there and the different things that we offer in this new format. It's starting to show results. I mean, this is really just a direct result of the completion of the renovation and the type of customers that we can attract with the products that's there now.

Dan Politzer (Analyst)

Got it. Thanks. It's nice to see the investment there. Thanks.

Operator (participant)

Thank you. Your next question is coming from Brandt Montour from Barclays. Your line is live.

Brandt Montour (Analyst)

Good afternoon or good evening, everybody. Thanks for taking my question. My first question is on Macau. I think from where we sit, it's sort of hard to. We see clearly a strengthening of the Chinese consumer in your market and gambling propensity. I was wondering if you could flesh that out a little bit and talk about a spend-per-visit improvement sequentially across either base mass or premium mass. We all kind of thought it would be a premium mass sort of recovery here in May and June, but looking at your slides, it looks like base mass per table actually did better. Maybe you could just provide a little more color on who's spending more where.

Daniel Briggs (SVP of Investor Relations)

Hi, Grant. Maybe I'll take that question. I think overall visitation has been very strong. You see the results for April and May go up by over 20% year-on-year. Obviously, a lot of that is driven by the day trip visitors from the Greater Bay Area. Nonetheless, I think that's helping to drive some of the base mass recovery. No question, I think the acceleration of GGR is still primarily driven by the premium segments. I think this quarter in particular, the market benefited from some big rolling play, but also at the high end of the premium mass. I think that those dynamics remain, similar to previous quarters. We're beginning to see also an increased level of visitation, a bit more from the Greater Bay Area in terms of day trips. Of course, from our results as well, sequentially, I think you alluded to it.

Clearly, we grew quite significantly in the base mass non-rolling win against Q1. That's partly driven by the opening of the Londoner Grand.

Brandt Montour (Analyst)

Okay. That's super helpful. And then just a quick follow-up on Macau. The Londoner results clearly had a nice bounce here in the second quarter. And you alluded to it in your prepared remarks that some of the other properties did not do quite as well. Am I to read between the lines that The Londoner is the property that has received the most incremental reinvestment activity and the other properties have not? And that's kind of next up in terms of your sort of blueprint or game plan here, or is that not the right read-through?

Daniel Briggs (SVP of Investor Relations)

No, that's not entirely accurate. In terms of our higher reinvestment levels, that just went into the portfolio across the board. I think what we were referencing in earlier remarks is that we may need to further, and we have been further adjusting our reinvestment levels during the quarter towards the end of the quarter for some of our smaller properties. Because we think those products, given the size and the product level, may need recalibration in the reinvestment levels versus the natural patronage that is flocking to The Londoner and also the strength of a property like The Venetian. Continues to be able to attract customers at all segments.

Brandt Montour (Analyst)

Great color. Thanks, everyone.

Daniel Briggs (SVP of Investor Relations)

Thanks, Grant.

Operator (participant)

Thank you. Your next question is coming from Robin Farley from UBS. Your line is live.

Robin Farley (Analyst)

Great. Thank you. Just going back to the acceleration you talked about in June in Macau, it seems like it's driven, at least a fair amount of it, by the events calendar. How do you get comfortable that it's sustainable as you get past some of the July events and the calendar not being as sustainable in terms of events?

Grant Chum (CEO and President)

I think, Robin, the calendar is being filled literally every week, every month by all of the different operators, us included. The change from before the pandemic is really every operator is contributing to the events calendar. Of course, the big events brought in, whether by us at The Venetian Arena or by our competitor, it is beneficial to the entire market when we have significant acts. That will obviously not be a consistent pattern because acts come at different times of the year and different length, duration of play and so on. You can be sure that the calendar will continue to be filled with great entertainment content. I think Macau has really been successful in establishing itself as a regional center for entertainment, be it from Greater China artists, Asian artists, and even international artists.

Patrick Dumont (President and COO)

Robin, I would just add to Grant's comments that I think it was last year. I would not give us credit in Singapore because Taylor Swift made the whole thing happen. She was not available this quarter, but still did pretty well. I think the truth is, I think she was. We could not get her to come in. She was busy. The truth is we have in Macau, yes, lots of events. I have learned over the years events just rearrange the customer visitations. They do not necessarily create new as much as they rearrange when people come and go. I think that market is just showing strength. I mean, June results, I think you just see a building. Yes, there is no question you have a Jacky Cheung and some of these high-end entertainers help.

Again, I think you have to look at the strength of the market overall. I believe it is there. I have not been there last month. The first time it looked a lot like pre-pandemic Macau. Very strong. Lots of people at the tables. I don't believe the entertainers, even special events, actually create more visitations, just rearrange when you come. I would not be that concerned with the event count, although it is chock-full of events. Everyone has entertainment these days and terrific restaurants, etc. I think you have to look at the overall results in the last few months and be very encouraged where Macau appears to be headed.

Robin Farley (Analyst)

Okay. Great. Thank you. For the follow-up, just a quick one. Are you thinking about revisiting what you consider a normal hold percent in Singapore? I know you just raised it in Q1, but I'm wondering if you're thinking about whether that 3.7% was high enough for normalized hold. Thanks.

Patrick Dumont (President and COO)

I wouldn't let one quarter drive your thinking. I think you have to stay focused on. Again, this is a very difficult thing for us and other competitors because, as you know, hold percentage is a moving target these days driven by who bets what and how. It really does move. As you know, the smart tables have enabled us to see much more clearly. It's a great insight to how the market should perform. I don't think we'll move our hold percentage right now until we see more evidence. It does change with the market and the visitation and the types of bets customers made. The old days it was 2.85%, 3.25%. That's no longer in vogue. It's now very much a moving target, depending on who's coming, what they're betting, side bets versus flat bets.

I think we'll come back to you in the future if we need to reassess. Right now, I think we're fine where we're at.

Robin Farley (Analyst)

Okay. Thank you.

Operator (participant)

Thank you. Your next question is coming from Joe Stauff from Susquehanna. Your line is live.

Joe Stauff (Analyst)

Okay. Thank you. Good afternoon. In Singapore. Maybe a different attempt to ask a similar question that we've heard earlier on the call, but can I ask about just sort of mass gaming revenue and how strong it was? Is that simply a function of better hold? Is it increased visitation? It's admittedly another question to just try to benchmark with the newer product that you have in Singapore, how strong this number could be. Obviously, VIP is a separate category, different level of volatility. How much is there any way to disaggregate this number a little bit more for understanding?

Daniel Briggs (SVP of Investor Relations)

I hate to say this. You're not going to like the answer, but it's very difficult for us to do it as well as you. When you do $843 million, up 97% in pre-pandemic, and 40% higher year-on-year, it's hard for us to get our hands around it. There is an awful lot of people showing up in all these segments and gambling outsized amounts of money. Your question is a fair one. I wish we had better answers. How deep is the well? How high can this thing go? We're confused ourselves by it because we expected 2.5. Now I think we can say we can achieve it this year. I think it's a combination of incredible market, incredible access to people who want to get there. The visa situation is helpful. I think you're seeing the results of very, very superlative results in terms of building.

The building is just unique and special. There is lots of product. I know it's difficult. I hear your frustration. We share it. We don't want to overexaggerate this and say we're running $3 million. We also don't want to underplay it. We want to accept the fact that it happened. It's happened now two quarters in a row with strong results. We're hoping for a similar second half of the year. It's hard to model. I'd be blunt with you. I think one thing I would say, when you say mass gaming, premium mass gaming is alive and well in those numbers. These are non-rolling, very high-rolling. Don't consider people betting $1,000 a hand. This premium mass segment, which is in that 8.47 number, 8.43, is a lot of very, very high-end non-rollers, which is different than past Macau. I appreciate the commentary of your questions. It's very fair.

I wish we had more insightful answers. We keep watching this thing and saying, "We watched a quarter with amazement, but it just kept coming." I think it'll just keep coming in Singapore. Whether we beat the customer is a different issue with a 3.7, 3.3. We never can know. The volumes look strong. To me, it appears like we're in a run here that may last for a long time.

Joe Stauff (Analyst)

Gotcha. Maybe a follow-up. Formula One is pushing the fourth quarter in Singapore this year versus September last. What's the right way to think about whether or not the rest of the building can absorb that normal activity? Or do you view that as a bit of a headwind?

Patrick Dumont (President and COO)

Formula One is always a great event for Singapore. It's something that we fully support. We're an integral part of. We always welcome it. I think our patrons really enjoy it. A lot of visitors show up in Singapore because of this event. For us, whenever it happens, it's great. If it's third quarter, fourth quarter, we're happy with it. We do our best to support the initiative around it because we think it's great for Singapore. It's great for Marina Bay Sands. The type of customers that show up are always very helpful. In terms of being able to accommodate customers in Q3 or during Golden Week with Formula One, it's fine. Either way, it works.

Joe Stauff (Analyst)

Understood. Thanks a lot.

Operator (participant)

Thank you. Your next question is coming from Chad Beynon from Macquarie. Your line is live.

Chad Beynon (Analyst)

Hi, good afternoon. Thanks for taking my question. Wanted to go back to Metall, Rob. You mentioned 2.7 as the near-term North Star, and hopefully that eventually moves kind of back to 3. Wanted to approach it from a margin standpoint. Londoner had nice improvement in margin. The collective was down 80 basis points, as you guys called out. The flow-through was obviously negative here for the quarter. Does margin matter as much in terms of how you're thinking about running the business, or given some of the commentary that we've spoken about with promos, maybe we should not have a margin target in mind just because of simple inflation and a different approach towards promo, or is that still the case to get closer to a 40% margin long-term? Thanks.

Patrick Dumont (President and COO)

I think the key thing about Macau is that there's a very large fixed cost base in our property portfolio. Our margin is going to be determined by how much revenue we can push through these buildings. If our promotional activity, if our customer reinvestment makes us a little less competitive and we have less revenue, our margins will be impacted. I think for us, ex hold, right, if you ignore the impact of hold, if we continue to have the best properties where we have great offerings for our customers and great experiences, and then we reinvest in a more market-competitive way, we think we'll still have the ability to drive revenue at an appropriate margin. If you look at the margin regime where we are today, that's okay for now. As we grow revenues and grow the business over time, there might be some opportunity for some upside.

I don't think we're looking at a specific EBITDA margin in terms of our reinvestment guidance. Our reinvestment guidance is going to be based on the market, and hopefully we'll grow revenues based on our product portfolio. We put a whole lot of new product into the market this last quarter, right? The Londoner Grand is a whole new building, and the casino performance there has been great. We have tremendous slot performance coming out of the Londoner total portfolio. I think for us, as you heard Grant, as you heard Rob mention before, we have some work to do. That being said, we think there's opportunities at The Parisian. We think there's opportunities at the Four Seasons. Even downtown at the Sands, we think there's opportunity. While we keep pushing The Venetian and The Londoner, our segmentation has different reinvestment requirements.

We're going to keep looking at it and evaluating the segmentation across the different properties to ensure that we can optimize for revenue growth and cash flow growth. We're not targeting a specific EBITDA margin, but over time, as we have the opportunity to grow revenues, the margin will follow.

Daniel Briggs (SVP of Investor Relations)

Margin does matter, but EBITDA matters more. In any business, you got to be sensitive to the environment you're playing in. The environment there has changed. We weren't sensitive enough. Now we readjust that, couple with our strong assets, and you add that to a growing and surging GGR. I think you have a good formula. Obviously, we always want to be margin sensitive, but we want to be EBITDA sensitive too. It's a combination. It's not a simple question to answer. Each building performs differently.

Chad Beynon (Analyst)

Great. Thank you both. The news that we've seen in terms of the movement from the Thai cabinet withdrawing the bill at this point for legalized casinos, I guess there's probably no update from your end because we're probably reading the same information. Anything to talk about there or any other potential developments that you guys plan to pursue outside of the two markets that you're in? Thank you.

Patrick Dumont (President and COO)

I think we're constantly looking at new development growth opportunities in new jurisdictions. We're evaluating them as they come along. It's something that we feel like in Thailand, there's a great opportunity there. If the legal framework and the regulatory framework is appropriate, it's something we'll definitely look at and consider. As of right now, as you just mentioned, there's not a whole lot to think about.

Daniel Briggs (SVP of Investor Relations)

Thailand is the greatest opportunity in Asia of what's left of those countries. It is so hard to tell what's going to happen, day-to-day changes. It certainly is, for anybody in our industry, a very important place if it ever actually comes to fruition.

Chad Beynon (Analyst)

Thanks. Appreciate it.

Operator (participant)

Thank you. Your next question is coming from Lizzie Dove from Goldman Sachs. Your line is live.

Lizzie Dove (VP and Equity Research Analyst)

Hi there. Thanks for taking the question. You mentioned earlier that the goal of The Londoner is to move towards the goal of a billion dollars in annualized EBITDA. Curious timing of that, how much more reinvestment, kind of promotions are needed to get there, and yeah, more sophisticated to get there.

Daniel Briggs (SVP of Investor Relations)

I think we've only just started ramping up the property. I mean, if you think about the Londoner Grand, it really only fully launched from May onwards. We are still in the very early innings of the ramp-up in Londoner, and we're already running close to $800 million annualized. We do see opportunity to yield higher and higher across all of the hotels in London and Macau, but especially Londoner Grand. I think Patrick just referenced there, we're seeing exceptional slot and ETG performance out of London already, way surpassing what this building was achieving in 2019. I think we're seeing high levels of non-rolling table performance as well. As all these segments continue to grow and we put higher quality customers into the suites and the rooms, we will get to that $1 billion annualized that Rob referenced. That's the goal.

We don't know exact timing, but we're really only at the very start of the ramp-up of the property.

Lizzie Dove (VP and Equity Research Analyst)

Got it. That makes sense. Just going back to the promotionality side of things, obviously, it's something you've been kind of ramping up over the last couple of months. I'm curious what you've seen from other players and how the competitive environment has evolved, whether they've responded with the same level of promotionality, whether there's been irrationality at all in the market, just what you're kind of broadly seeing in the response to that.

Daniel Briggs (SVP of Investor Relations)

The market continues to be very competitive. I don't think the intensity is dropping at all. Each operator is fighting for a greater share of the pie. I think the main difference, of course, this quarter is that we also are in the mix now in terms of reinvestment levels back to the customer. We see the response, and we see the initial signs are encouraging. Of course, it is more biased towards the high-end segments where the levels of customer reinvestment are shifting the players back to our properties or gaining new customers, especially through The Londoner. That process will continue and we'll continue to evaluate. We don't expect the competitive dynamics to ease off. I think that will continue to be intense. Of course, a higher level of GGR and acceleration in the market growth will help all of us, like Rob mentioned.

That's still the single biggest factor in determining the results of not just our performance, but of the whole market.

Lizzie Dove (VP and Equity Research Analyst)

Got it. Thank you.

Daniel Briggs (SVP of Investor Relations)

Thank you, Lizzie.

Operator (participant)

Thank you. Your next question is coming from George Choi from Citigroup. Your line is live.

George Choi (Analyst)

Thank you very much for taking my question. Over the past several months, we've seen you guys took the side-bets from Marina Bay Sands and introduced them to your Macau operations. Just recently, we saw you guys added a progressive jackpot to your baccarat games in Macau, and we believe that there was also run-in from Marina Bay Sands. My question is, do you still have any best practices at Marina Bay Sands that your Macau operations can learn from?

Daniel Briggs (SVP of Investor Relations)

It's a work in progress, George. Obviously, we trade information back and forth based on best practices. We saw a lot of success in Singapore with side-bets. I think we'll see it in Macau. We continue, as you know, ahead of us. You're selling on top of this. It's frightening. Congratulations. I think the truth is we're learning as we go. I'm a firm believer that these markets aren't that different in terms of customer activity. I think in the end, you'll see a lifetime result in Macau in time. It's newer to the Macau market. It's no longer it'll prove there. We're really confident that this new era of smart tables, side-bets, which is increasing hold percentage for everyone, all of our competitors as well, is highly positive for the industry and exciting for the customers.

Time will tell how long it takes to see the increased hold percentage and how much they move towards side-bets. We're big believers in this. We're trying to be very innovative, as you alluded to in your comments, in how we view the markets and gambling. It's changing every day. We want to be leaders in that evolving process.

George Choi (Analyst)

Thank you very much for the great color. I'll turn back to you. Thank you.

Daniel Briggs (SVP of Investor Relations)

Thank you, George. Appreciate it.

Operator (participant)

Thank you. Your next question is coming from David Katz from Jefferies. Your line is live.

David Katz (Managing Director and Senior Equity Analyst)

Afternoon, everyone. Thanks for taking my questions. I wanted to start with Singapore, where there's obviously significant investment coming for further expansion. Things have started to finally really go well in the core building. Frankly, we've been waiting for it for a few years. I want to make sure, one, there isn't construction disruption or what, if anything, just to make sure, could sort of impact the momentum that you have there in Singapore?

Patrick Dumont (President and COO)

Just a couple of things. The site is adjacent to Marina Bay Sands. In the renovation work we did at Marina Bay Sands in the prior years that you referenced, it was actually an actively operating building while we were doing it. It is a little bit like changing your tires in the middle of an F1 race while you are driving. We did that. The good news is the building is, in terms of suite renovation, interior is complete. We are starting to see the benefits of that and the results of this quarter. Our expansion, and we actually had a groundbreaking last week. Dr. Adelson was there. Rob was there. Grant was there. I was there. Some other members of the LVS management team were there.

Most importantly, the Prime Minister and the Minister, Grace Fu, responsible for our portfolio, was there. It was an amazing groundbreaking. We are very happy to have the government support, and we are very fortunate to be in Singapore. This is a very important complex for tourism, for both leisure and business tourism in the market. For us, any disruption is something we take really seriously. The good news is we have a little bit more than seven, eight per site directly next door. It is its own site. When we build this, ultimately, there will be connections back to Marina Bay Sands. During the construction, it is not going to impact our ability to conduct operations. Unlike the renovation we just did, this is something separate and distinct. We will bridge over to it during the construction process, but it will not be disruptive.

Chad Beynon (Analyst)

Perfect. If I can ask one quick follow-up on the strategic evolution in Macau, you talked about reinvestment rates, but I wanted to ask about credit and whether that's a tool that you would be using and how that starts to show up. Does it sort of show up maybe later on and on the cost side of the equation? Is there any of that in there that we should be keeping our eye out for?

Daniel Briggs (SVP of Investor Relations)

No. I think in terms of the credit-based play, it's a very small portion of our overall GGR. Traditionally, and we've been doing this for two decades, we extend credit to some premium patrons in the direct rolling programs. It has been a consistent practice of ours, and we're very experienced in it. It's not a significant part of the GGR.

Chad Beynon (Analyst)

Okay. Thank you.

Daniel Briggs (SVP of Investor Relations)

Thank you.

Operator (participant)

Thank you. Your next question is coming from John DeCree from CBRE. Your line is live.

John DeCree (Analyst)

Hi everyone. Thanks for taking my questions. I wanted to ask one about your retail mall portfolio, particularly retail sales. We're seeing a little bit of an acceleration in Mainland China, looks like in Macau. You've seen a little bit of lift in the 2Q as well. We got a lot of questions about the sustainability of GGR growth, which you've fielded already today. Curious if you could give us some thoughts on what you're seeing in the retail mall, particularly on the luxury side of things.

Grant Chum (CEO and President)

Thanks for the question. The retail mall tenant sales started to see a good recovery in the second quarter. We were in positive tenant sales year-on-year basis. We're growing by about 10% across the retail mall portfolio in Macau. Within that, luxury is still relatively weaker versus the rest of the portfolio, but we did start to see within the quarter signs that even the luxury sales were improving, partly because also we have been introducing some pretty amazing flagship stores in some of the key luxury brands in the portfolio. You'll continue to see that being a feature of the Four Seasons Mall into the beginning of 2026. There are some improvements that we are making ourselves that should help to lift the luxury sales portion of the mall.

Overall, we're happy to see that the mall is back in a positive sales territory, double-digit growth in the second quarter compared to last year.

John DeCree (Analyst)

Great. Thanks, Grant. Maybe if I could follow up with one big picture question about visitation. Visitation from mainland ex-Guangdong, which you highlight in your slide deck, is kind of sluggish to recovery relative to the day trippers in the Bay Area. Given your room base in Macau, it seems like this is probably a pretty big opportunity. Curious your views if there's an opportunity and what can be done to help Macau start to penetrate deeper into mainland and see some of that visitation outside of Guangdong come back.

Grant Chum (CEO and President)

Yeah, it's a great question. I think Dan in his deck has the breakout of the provinces' visitation. As compared to 2019, it's on page 20 of the deck. I think what you see is, yes, you're right. Overall, excluding Guangdong, the recovery of visitation is still lagging. But within that, it's very uneven. Some of the wealthier coastal provinces and the major cities, we are seeing recovery beyond the 2019 visitation levels. Some of the other provinces are lagging much more significantly. I agree, it is an opportunity. I think Macau and the operators are continuously doing the destination marketing roadshows across the different parts of Mainland China as well as overseas, and that will continue. Transportation is continuing to improve in terms of pricing and connectivity. Of course, the availability of hotel rooms. Of course, we've been adding high-quality inventory, as have some other operators as well.

We expect all of those factors to drive better penetration in the non-Guangdong visitation numbers, especially helping to drive that overnight visitation, which is clearly the highest spending segment. That said, the overall hotel inventory in Macau is not significantly growing. That will continue to act as a constraint on the overall overnight visitation. I think what you see is a continued improvement in the quality of the tourism coming to stay overnight in Macau.

John DeCree (Analyst)

That's really helpful. Thanks a lot, Grant. Thanks, all.

Operator (participant)

Thank you. Your next question is coming from Steve Wieczyski from Stifel. Your line is live.

Steven Wieczynski (Managing Director)

Yeah, hey guys, good afternoon. Most of my questions have been answered, so just one for me. Rob or Patrick, I mean, as we think about Singapore, and Patrick, you mentioned you guys just started construction on IR2. Based on what you've witnessed over the last six months, eight months coming out of IR1 and the kind of crazy numbers that you guys have been putting up over there out of IR1, has that changed your internal return assumptions for IR2 at this point?

Patrick Dumont (President and COO)

I don't think so. Look, I think we generally have a view that Marina Bay Sands and Singapore is an investment-driven story. The more we invest in high-quality assets, the better service levels we have, the more we're going to have pricing power, the more we're going to be able to differentiate our product, and the more high-value tourism we'll be able to bring in. Because of that, we'll get more revenue, we'll get more EBITDA. You're seeing that happen this quarter in Singapore. It's the full power of our suite products, the full power of our food and beverage offerings, our MICE offerings. Everything's really coming together, all the entertainment we do, the high level of service. We have a great premium mass customer base there. The shopping, all the other things that we've added, it's really a very unique lifestyle program that we offer to people.

For us, IR2 is just an extension of that. Our goal is to have the best hotel in the world there, to have the best gaming experience, the best food and beverage, and then have this live entertainment venue, the likes of which we've never had before in terms of being able to drive customer visitation. We feel very strongly about this. It's a $6 billion investment, $2 billion of premium that we have to pay to the government. We feel very strongly about the quality of that investment at where it can go. Adjustment in models is not where we're at now. It's a very long way away. We've got a couple of years before it opens.

In our mind, this quarter, and actually, to be fair, what we've been seeing in the quarters leading up to this in terms of the high quality of patron that we have just validates the fact that we feel very strongly this will be a high-quality investment. While we haven't adjusted our models in any formal way, I think this just validates long-term in our minds the quality of the market and the strength of Singapore.

Steven Wieczynski (Managing Director)

Okay. Gotcha. Appreciate that, Patrick.

Daniel Briggs (SVP of Investor Relations)

Thanks, Steve.

Operator (participant)

Thank you. That completes our Q&A session. Everyone, this concludes today's event. You may disconnect at this time and have a wonderful day. We thank you for your participation.